Conflicting advice from GARF and Tampa Bay Saltwater

[taiko]

Hello all,
I've spent the last 9 months getting my 300 gal tank ready for reef and am at the point of starting to put in the live sand and rock. My initial research led me to GARF and back in July I made several hundred pounds of oyster shell rocks with white portland cement and have been soaking them in water ever since. Talking to Richard at TBS, he advised that I not use any of that and referred me to reefcentral. Well, my search here has led to mostly positive reviews for using the artificial LR and seeding with the real thing. Only 2 posters have stated that there is a risk of leaching "heavy metals" from the oyster shells. (But if all the chickens eat it, wouldn't that imply we should all stay away from eating chicken?)Going with TBS alone would cost ~$4000! So is TBS giving good advice or are they being self serving? I do want to start out on the right foot, but not spend $$$ if the end result is the same with the only difference being time.
Thanks for all your help :lol:

 

[hdtran]

Our pond was lined with concrete (portland cement, sand, rock). The pH was above 9 for over a year, in spite of scrubbing with muriatic acid (sulfuric acid, essentially). Couldn't get the calcium hydroxide neutralized for the longest time.

I wouldn't risk killing a tank (or LR) for a few $. If you used aragonite, portland cement, and a pH test kit while making your 'aragacrete,' I might say, ok, try seeding it and see if it colonizes bacteria and coralline algae.

I don't think that aragacrete will colonize with stars, feather dusters, bristleworms, etc. in any reasonable amount of time.

If you want to save $, use limestone or other 'base' rocks for the understructure, and use LR (whether TBS or other aquacultured, or wild-collected indo-pacific LR) on top, where you see it.

My opinion: I wouldn't risk the tank (or the LR). I personally don't think the heavy metal is the issue, I think the pH is gonna get you.

Not meaning to discourage you (well, maybe :wink: ), but you should have known starting out that a 300g tank was going to be $$$$. Don't be penny-wise, pound foolish... In the long run, you'll be better off getting the best equipment & livestock that you can afford. Don't skimp on the skimmer, don't skimp on the lights, the pumps, etc. And as the LR is a crucial part of the biological filtration, don't skimp on that either...

 

[hillbilly]

Skimping will almost always come back to bite you on the a$$ in this hobby. My advice is get you some good quality LR to start with, you won't regret it later. If aquacultured rock is what you want, check out Dale Barger's website at Gulf View Marine. Dale's a good guy, and will work with you to hook you up.

 

[taikonaut]

First of all, welcome to RDO! Check out my sig, and let me know what you think.

There is always some risk involve, and in your case, it maybe a reasonable risk to take due to the large amount of money involve. My suggestion is that you can go with the home-made rock if you are sure about the quality of the oyster shell. You may want to "enhance" your rock with maybe 5% to 10% of real live rock (aquacultured or harvested) on the top. It will look slightly better and can get the critter and coralline algae to reproduce.

Go slow, and make sure you have no problem with easy livestocks. If you see tons of critter and inverts crawling after a few weeks, more than likely your rock is safe. If you can keep up with water change and other usually maintence, you should be fine. Do water testing before adding any significant amont of livestock to make sure there is no copper and other nasties from the shell.

Remember, go slow, and be patence, and check every step.

 

[taikonaut]

>... muriatic acid (sulfuric acid, essentially). ...
Minor point... Actually, muriatic acid is HCl, not H2SO4.

 

[taiko]

hdtran: Thanks for sharing with me your experience. I did know I was in for some $$$, but my initial research led me to believe that artificial rock was good to use. Oh well
Taikonaut: love your sig, I'm into Japanese drumming also, so I just went with that sig to keep the number of sigs to remember down to one
hillbilly: I'll check him out. thanks

 

[Anonymous]

I have used artificial rock with a layer of live rock over the top with good success. The fake rock never seems to get as well colonized with stuff, however.

TBS is selling live rock, correct?

I cure mine in a creek behind my house. Should be perfectly safe if well cured.

 

[jandree22]

just my $.02 in the matter..... I've purchased "Coralline Base Rock" from Gulf-View, and it was covered in Purple and Orange coralline algae, tons of feather dusters and lots of worms and pods.(in other words, a lotta goodies). His base rock is high quality and he's a super nice guy to work with. Here's a pic of his "Deco Rock".....but trust me, I swear my BASE rock looked exactly the same 8O

For 300lbs. of his Coralline rock, it's $1,490 shipped. Not bad for a huge ass tank like you've got. I'm not familiar with TBS other than I hear their rock isn't nearly as cooly shaped and there's a lot of mantis shrimp that come with their rock. $4,000? That's rediculous!

I agree with hillbilly, I've learned that skimping out on something to save $10 today will cost you $20 in half a year.... plus whatever a bottle of Tylenol costs for your headache that'll probably come too :lol:

 

[bubbletip1]

and my 3 cents..

Now I have no affiliation with TBS but they sell killer coral rock for $4 per pound. The $4000 was probably what they call the “package” that comes with live sand and tons of critters as well. Basically an instant reef based on tank size. A 300gal has a lot of space to fill…..You can even ask for specific size rock to be in your package

This is what a 300gal Package consist of with TBS….actually a lot more for your money (and environmentally safe!) 8) all for about $4000……

600 lbs of killer rock
300 lbs of REAL live sand
600 blue leg hermits
150 snails
12 cucumbers
7 brittle stars
7 pistol shrimp

And yes some very interesting hitchhikers…..
Needless to say I like TBS and what they do for the environment and the industry…….

Depends on what you like

 

[bubbletip1]

and my 3 cents..

Now I have no affiliation with TBS but they sell killer coral rock for $4 per pound. The $4000 was probably what they call the “package” that comes with live sand and tons of critters as well. Basically an instant reef based on tank size. A 300gal has a lot of space to fill…..You can even ask for specific size rock to be in your package

This is what a 300gal Package consist of with TBS….actually a lot more for your money (and environmentally safe!) 8) all for about $4000……

600 lbs of killer rock
300 lbs of REAL live sand
600 blue leg hermits
150 snails
12 cucumbers
7 brittle stars
7 pistol shrimp

And yes some very interesting hitchhikers…..
Needless to say I like TBS and what they do for the environment and the industry…….

Depends on what you like

 

[Fl_Seagull]

...back in July I made several hundred pounds of oyster shell rocks with white portland cement and have been soaking them in water ever since.

Dispite the nay sayer this rock (unless you made 10" slabs) should be fully cured but will likely rebound when you add sea water. After two weeks it should not be a problem.

.... 2 posters have stated that there is a risk of leaching "heavy metals" from the oyster shells.

I find much good advice is clouded by myth. "Heavy metals" is all to often thrown around with little facts to back it up.

As to TBS: They like any buisness is trying to sell you product. However, many people find the purchase of live rock gets them "look" they desire the fastest. Thus TBS is giving you the best advise for the majority of customers. Perhaps you are willing to wait for the growth you could just buy. The concrete rocks may be the answer for you. But I aggree with hdtran in that colonization of the rock is not likely to happen fast.

 

[jandree22]

600 lbs of killer rock
300 lbs of REAL live sand
600 blue leg hermits
150 snails
12 cucumbers
7 brittle stars
7 pistol shrimp

if you get all of that for $4000, then it's a deal IMO. Either way, Gulf-View or TBS has it's pros and cons, it's personal preference really.

 

[taiko]

I had a personal communication with Richard Rajski in the UK who has done exactly what I have been contemplating starting back in 1999 and has had success ever since. The pics of his tank are quite impressive, at least to this newbie. For the full illustrated history of his tank, please visit
http://www.reefsuk.com/ then click on Articles followed by Marine aquariums.

 

[taikonaut]

FWIW, If I were you, taiko, I will do the 90% home-make, and 10% aqua-cultured route.