The tank that will not cycle

[narny]

Hi,

My tank has been up for 15 weeks now. Parameters as follows :

Juwel Rio 180 (Using internal filter and pump as the pump churns the water really well when pointed upwards).
Eheim 2224 External filter with spraybar.
Tempreture 26 degree's celcius.
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0.25
Nitrate - .20
Calcium - 420
All RO water with Kent Marine Salt added (.024 specific gravity)
Live rock (10 Pieces, Couple large, rest smallish to make up reef)

The tank did actually cycle and my nitrites dropped to 0 after about week 10. At which point i added 2 small common clowns. Week 12 i added 2 cleaner shrimps.

All were doing well untill about week 13. The cleaners have molted (i found 2 skeletons) and the clowns are doing well also. It was then that my nitrites crept back up to 0.25 and i can't shift em. I've done a big water change, about 25% and allthough it helped, they crept back up to 0.25 again. The tank inhabitants are all doing fine, eating and swimming about. But i'm getting worried now. Nothing i do seems to make any difference. I've heard stories about running 2 filters togeather can make them compete, resulting in peaks and troughs , any suggestions???



Thanks



Forgot to add, i'm also getting a lot of red algae on the sand (yes i have phos removers in, and phosphates are undetectable)

Also lol, Has a base of about 2" of live sand

Oh yeah, and T5 Lighting too !!! 1 x White and 1 x Blue

 

[ChrisRD]

Hi and :welcome:

Have you tried any other test kits to check your nitrite levels? Maybe brought a sample to your LFS for testing?

 

[narny]

Hi,

And thanks !!

Yes i've tried 2 testkits, 1 Nutrafin, and one Doc Wellfish (my preffered)
I also own 2 other tanks, a discus and a malawi, so i'm used to testing parameters. May i also add my other 2 tanks are doing fine and have been mature for about a year now.

 

[Anonymous]

Are you saying that your two other tanks are a year old, or that they've been mature (a year or older) for a year? :| <puzzlement>

Honestly, I wouldn't rely on either of those test kits myself. I'd go with SeaChem (manufactured here in the U.S.), Salifert (manufactured in The Netherlands), or maybe even FasTest (last resort for me, I much prefer the first two listed for price and relative reliability). If you would like even better quality, Hache and LaMotte are two very good series of kits, as well.

You should know that some reagents may give false readings if certain water conditioners are used, though it's been my experience that ammonia is the reading most often skewed.

My advice, after acquiring a good quality kit, would be to try to find some Bio-Spira, it's a live culture of bacteria that has proved to be quite effective in boosting colonies. It is made for both fresh and saltwater, but I don't know what the availability would be across the pond.

 

[Anonymous]

One thing to keep in mind on nitrAtes is that the test kits check for different things. For instance my aquarium Pharm**** test total nitrates but the fast test kit tests nitrate-nitrogen. You multiply nitrate-nitrogen by something like 4.3 to get total nitrogen. Therefore, the fasttest kit will measure about 1/4 of the aquarium pharm**** even when both kits are totally accurate.

NitrItes should be 0.0. I have found the nitrIte test to be reliable and easy to read. I think if you simply do not feed for 3-4 days the nitrItes will fall to 0.0. Or they will go down on thier own in a few weeks. And they can be non zero for weeks and the fish will survive.

To get the nitrAes down and also help maintain the just before light off ph, I recommend establishing a thriving plant growth. In a refugium sure, but macro algaes or true marine plants will make the system "mature" very quickly.

Bob

 

[narny]

NitrItes dood, nowhere did i say NitrAtes.

I aint that much of a noob. I've heard of Bio-Spira, but as you say getting it over here is a different story. I've got a local guy looking into getting some in for me.

And as for my other tanks, they have been up for a year. Took about 4 weeks to cycle them, so for the puzzled, they've been mature for a year minus 4 weeks.

Update, i got up this morning and tested the water for NitrItes, and whoa !!!

0 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We'll see how long it stays that way, i'm feeding every couple of days at the moment. Baby brine, or marine mix. Also have some formula 1 Pellet.
I feed sparingly as i don't want to raise the nasty's any more than is allready there (NitrItes).

 

[Anonymous]

understand and I did understand you to say nitrItes.

Your experience with nitrItes dropping to 0.0 in a day agrees with my experience starting up new systems. They are outta site for a few days then in no more than two days drop to and stay at 0.0.


I don't know what the differences were/are between this tank and your other tanks. But the one thing that has made a huge difference in my systems is the amount of plant life in the system. For instance, I recently doubled my bioload (fish and feeding) and there was no bump up in ammonia or nitrItes. But after two days there was a bump up in nitrAtes which lasted about 2 weeks. What happened is the thriving macros switched to consuming ammonia from the added bioload. That prevented any ammonia (and nitrIte) bumps up but the macros slowed down consuming nitrAtes. Therefore, there was a small bump up in nitrAtes.

 

[ChrisRD]

I recommend establishing a thriving plant growth. In a refugium sure, but macro algaes or true marine plants will make the system "mature" very quickly.

Can you explain how this works? How do macros help the system mature more quickly?

What happened is the thriving macros switched to consuming ammonia from the added bioload. That prevented any ammonia (and nitrIte) bumps up but the macros slowed down consuming nitrAtes. Therefore, there was a small bump up in nitrAtes.

How do you know the macros were responsible for this? What about bacteria?

 

[Anonymous]

I recommend establishing a thriving plant growth. In a refugium sure, but macro algaes or true marine plants will make the system "mature" very quickly.

Can you explain how this works? How do macros help the system mature more quickly?

What happened is the thriving macros switched to consuming ammonia from the added bioload. That prevented any ammonia (and nitrIte) bumps up but the macros slowed down consuming nitrAtes. Therefore, there was a small bump up in nitrAtes.

How do you know the macros were responsible for this? What about bacteria?

Bacteria would not have resulted in the slight bump up of nitrAtes with no increas/spike in ammonia or nitrItes. The macros switching from consuming nitrates to consuming ammonia does explain it. And that happens with no increase in bacteria or macros. Bacteria would have had to double which would have taken time.

A system that does not have cycles despite the doubling of bioload is by definition mature.

 

[Fatal Morgana]

Since the last test showed that the nitrite is zero, sounds like you are back on track again. Keep us updated if you found anything unexpected.

I know the following is not related to the original poster's concern, but anyway....

Bacteria would not have resulted in the slight bump up of nitrAtes with no increas/spike in ammonia or nitrItes. ..

As to the above , FWIW, I would not had made any generalized statement like this since the A/N/N relationship is a pretty complex dynamical system.

One may apt for the simplest explaination, but there are many others. For example, the nitrogen can got thru the A->Ni->Na steps by the bacteria action, and it did so quickly that you don't see any A or Ni peak, while the nitrate get bump due to the lack of nitrate export mechanism.

It is possible that the amount of nutrient was able to substain (keep alive) a bacteria population that can handle addition nutrient when condition arrives (e.g., bioload/feeding).

A system that does not have cycles despite the doubling of bioload is by definition mature.

Unfortunately, you can say that the tank has good buffer for nutrient, but maturity is a lot more vague concept to quantify. However, I would like to know if you have the specific author that comes up with this helpful metric for a matured tank.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd have to agree with Morgan on all points. I'd like to add that, along with all the other variables, there will only be enough bacteria to consume available nutrients. That there seemingly are not enough bacteria to oxidize nitrite into nitrate may indicate many things, which is why I felt it may help to simplify the matter and ensure a good innoculation of those bacteria. Many of the other variables that factor in may not exactly be quantifiable or measurable without a good deal of expense/diligence/equipment, though it may make a fascinating study

The presence of macro-algae is not so much an indicator of a mature system, as it is another 'device' for consumption of nutrients. For most intents and purposes, their presence is generally a good thing.

To note for Bob - the main difference between the tank narny is asking about and his/her other tanks is that this one is saltwater, while the others, being specific regional cichlid systems, are fresh.

 

[ChrisRD]

I'll second what Morgan and SM have said.

Also...

Bacteria would not have resulted in the slight bump up of nitrAtes with no increas/spike in ammonia or nitrItes.

??? With all respect, I'd suggest you read up on the nitrogen cycle and nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria before making statements like this.

The macros switching from consuming nitrates to consuming ammonia does explain it. And that happens with no increase in bacteria or macros. Bacteria would have had to double which would have taken time.

Pure speculation on your part. The fact is, there's no way you could possibly know how much of these nutrients are being taken up by bacteria and how much are being taken up by macros.

A system that does not have cycles despite the doubling of bioload is by definition mature.

I've added several fish to a month old tank with no "cycles". That's a mature tank by your definition, but not by mine (or most reefkeepers)...

 

[Anonymous]

Ditto for what Morgan, SM and Chris said.

The presence of macros is not an indicator or a 'mature system'. Their presence indicates that there is something in the system that the macros use to grow. There are many mature systems that are unable to grow macros because there aren't enough unused nutrients floating around to allow the macros to grow.

Other than that, it sound like your tank is about 15 weeks old!

 

[spike spiegal]

This is a 15 week old tank with patches of cyano growing guys, and we're debating consumption rates of nitrate. Come on - give me a break. :evil: If this isn't a classic case of new tank syndrome I don't know what is.

Ammonia, nitirite, and nitrate reducing bacteria all reguire a certain amount of time to stabilize and take hold in a new tank, and in my experience 15 weeks is on the edge of the nitrite cycle leveling off with double that for nitrate reducers to start taking effect. After a year or more a well kept reef starts building colonies of macro algae, corralline, and other less exotics that all take from the nitrate pool and keep it low.

That Ehiem isn't helping much either by grabbing waste products that should really be handled by your live rock / sand and hence create some nice, deep bacterial colonies to help with nitrate reduction. That won't happen with a cannister filter. I'm sorry if others disagree, but I'm convinced this type of filter will prolong a tank in terms of cycling and inhibit proper nitrate reduction. I'd look seriously into getting a good skimmer and replacing the Eheim with something just to circulate water. Use it occasionally with some good AC for a good scrubbing, but not all the time.

Also cut with the drastic water changes. Unless you're using good RO water the heavy nutrients in common tap will keep those cyano colonies (the red slime algae) very happy, and I'm not just talking phosphate. The nitrites will eventually stabilize with good circulation in the tank - they have to. I've had to move my smaller 30gal reef twice in the past 6months and don't even bother monitoring it. Good circulation, lots of live rock and skimmer keeps everything flat.

 

[narny]

Well, another day another nitrIte test. Wahey 0 again, even after last nights feeding (which as allways is frenzied lol).

Looks like it's cycled good and proper now, will keep an eye on and will curb heavy feeding untill i'm sure. That aside, 4 Months to cycle a tank?????? I heard reef can take longer but sheesh. lol at least it works now.

Cheers for all the help.

Ade

 

[ChrisRD]

This is a 15 week old tank with patches of cyano growing guys, and we're debating consumption rates of nitrate. Come on - give me a break. :evil:

Not sure what the angry face is for. This is a discussion forum, and debate/discussion is what we do here...

If this isn't a classic case of new tank syndrome I don't know what is.

I don't really see your point. The original poster's question was about nitrites rising again in week 13 after the tank had already cycled at week 4 (and nitrites had already been testing 0).

At any rate, the debate that followed afterwards was more a response to some generalizations made later in the thread, not really the original post.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, another day another nitrIte test. Wahey 0 again, even after last nights feeding (which as allways is frenzied lol).

Looks like it's cycled good and proper now, will keep an eye on and will curb heavy feeding untill i'm sure. That aside, 4 Months to cycle a tank?????? I heard reef can take longer but sheesh. lol at least it works now.

Cheers for all the help.

Ade

Narny:

I hope the discussion here has not caused too much confusion on your part. I have also had the nitrIte bump up in several new tanks I have setup. What I have found helps is to not feed new additions until nitrItes rise and then drop. I have also found that with a new tank with limited plant life you do get a nitrite spike in the first week. With the reduced feeding the nitrItes peg the testkit for 2-3 days and then drop to 0.0 in the next 2 days. And after they drop to 0.0, then more normal feeding can resume with nitrItes remaining at 0.0. So I watch my nitrItes to see if I am over feeding.

I have also found the with plant life maintaing nitrAtes at 0.0 The ammonia/nitrIte spike is very much reduced or eliminated althgether. But nitrAtes can/will bump up slightly after a couple of days. Then return to 0.0 after a couple of weeks.

JME.

I am glad you found this discussion helpful.

Bob

 

[Brian5000]

Back to the test kits for a sec. I have the same problem with ammonia. I use the Doc Wellfish kit too (the same as my LFS), and I regardless of what I do, it has read a little (0.25 ppm) ammonia ever since I added my last fish 3 weeks ago. Meanwhile, my fish n' inverts n' stuff show no sign of stress. Is it probably the test kit?
_________________
Tippmann 98 custom

 

[Anonymous]

Back to the test kits for a sec. I have the same problem with ammonia. I use the Doc Wellfish kit too (the same as my LFS), and I regardless of what I do, it has read a little (0.25 ppm) ammonia ever since I added my last fish 3 weeks ago. Meanwhile, my fish n' inverts n' stuff show no sign of stress. Is it probably the test kit?

I agree.


My aquarium pharm**** test kit has read .25 ppm for going on two years. I just ignore it.

NitrAtes can be confusing also. The aquarium Pharm**** tests for total nitrogen where as the fasttest kit tests for nitrate-nitrogen. The conversion factor is somethign like 4.4. To 10ppm on one is equilivant to 44ppm on the other. Fortunately, you shoot for 0.0 which is the same on both.

 

[Anonymous]

Most of the experienced reefers I know don't actually test for anything unless it looks like something is starting to go wrong. It is very easy to get into a numbers mentality and that really just running in a hamster wheel. Almost all the test kits vary, so I suggest only using them if a problem is starting. Of course this means you have to pay attention to all your critters, but thats really the point anyway.