Is A chiller neccesary for a reek tank?

[ChrisRD]

My apologies - I was skimming the forum quickly when I responded to this thread and didn't read the first paragraph of your initial post, just responded to the temp question...

You're moving WAY too fast and obviously have gotten some bad advise from your LFS. IMO you've added far too much life far too quickly and the combination of fish in your tank is going to make for a war zone in the near future. At this point I would seriously consider returning all but two of the clowns and most if not all of the damsels.

Most of us would have recommended you setup the tank with the live rock and let it run for several weeks before adding any more life. Once the water parameters have stabilized you'd normally add cleanup critters. If things appear to be OK for the next week or so, you can generally start stocking fish SLOWLY.

As it stands right now, you are headed for trouble IMO.

 

[ChrisRD]

...and just to address some things specifically...

Both my husband and myself are truly amazed at all the information, you all here, aquarium shops, books and etc...differ.It seems, we are all in conflict with one another...regarding starting a reef tank..temperature, fishes and invertebrates..which way is the right way to sart a reef tank?

Keep in mind we're not selling anything here. Just trying to help others succeed. I think you'll find many of the quality books do not run counter to the concepts most will endorse here. An LFS is trying to sell stuff - sometimes not in the most ethical manner.

I think our marine biologist guy, with regards to his methods, put fishes in our tank to advance the process of bacterial growth..causing the spike in ammonia to happen quicker...

A concept that is outdated, unnecessary with your setup, and cruel to the fish IMO. Regardless of opinion, the amount of fish you have in the tank is way in excess of anything that was ever recommended, even in the days of "cycling" a tank with hardy fish...

Anyway, my husband just tested our levels and here they are: Temp. 78.3, Alkalinity Norm, PH 8.2 (up from 8.0 Yesterday), NH3/NH4 .5 (up from .4 Yest), NO2 .02 (same as yest), NO3 .5 (same as yest), Specific Gravity 1.0245 (same as yest), Please let me know what this means and are we missing any other tests?

Looks about right. Ammonia is on the rise (normal at this point) and with the bioload you have it may end-up going high enough to kill a lot of stuff. The Nitrite spike is next and can be even more dangerous.

All our fish are eating and seem happy. We lost 2 horseshoe crabs.

The fish you have in the tank at the moment are extremely tough, and will survive conditions that far surpass anything they should be made to endure. Not necessarily an indication that all is well. Many inverts (like your crabs) will not be so hardy and can be a better indicator of system health IMO.

I ask that you please keep the advice flowing and we will weigh all advice, which we are thankful for, and we will continue to research and if nothing prevails, as it seems, it might not, trial and error will be our only hope..

Please don't resort to trial and error when dealing with live animals. There's plenty of quality information out there - that situation can easily be avoided.

since there seems to be no single correct way of starting a reef tank... that all agree on. If I am wrong, please tell me so..

There's more than one way to do it successfully - that's for sure, but most will agree that there are also guidelines common to any sound methodology. Some of those have already been stated in this thread.

Again, as Jolieve mentioned previously - please don't take offense to any of the above comments as they are offered with the intent of helping, not insulting.

HTH

 

[ChrisRD]

BTW, take a look at our Beginner's Guide in the library:

http://www.reefs.org/library/newbieguide.htm

Lots of good information there...

 

[Andrea1]

Gotcha, no offense taken at all. My husband did a 5 gallon water change to lower the SG it is now at 1.025. We noticed that a rusty-red organism (bacteria) ? is starting to grow on the LR. What is this? Should we be worried? I called our aquarium guy and he said its fine and normal. Stupid me, I didn't ask him the name of it.
Thank you,
Andrea

 

[Anonymous]

I'm sure you want a lot of opinions, so I'll chime in too...you were sold. They saw you coming...a statement you made "it isnt the money and we are buying an $800 chiller" is exactly the type of customer I would want too at my store!

If the lfs guy is a marine biologist, and he truly is, it still doesn't matter! You are comparing an ocean (a completely open system that is and has been stable for millions of years) to a closed ecosystem. While it is helpful to know about the ocean, its completely different in a tank.

I will surmise, especially since I see already your ammonia is on the rise, and most likely will follow with a nitrite peak next, that you lose most of the fish in your tank if not dealt with by returning the fish.

Cycling should never begin with introduction of fish, no matter how hardy. No one should ever add fish until ammonia and nitrite have each spiked and receded, and nitrates are below 20 or so. I personally would not go back to that store after returning the fish. I don't mean to be harsh, but either he has no idea what he is talking about, or he simply took advantage of you, or a little of both.

If he gives you crap (like a lfs around here did to me-never went back there)) that people on boards such as this don't give proper information, ask him if he thinks WE ever tried to sell you something! People here are awesome. While opinions on certain things will differe, rarely, in fact never as far as I have seen, did it ever have to do with a topic that could potentially kill all of your livestock. I admit, I am far from an expert and am finally understanding the complex chemistry of alk-ph-calc and other relations, but I know some things

Run, dont walk back to that LFS, and post here the name of it so others can avoid it at all costs.

 

[Jolieve]

Very long post ensues, apologies in advance.

Andrea, you were cheated. I'm so sorry, because I truly believe you and your husband want to succeed in this hobby otherwise you wouldn't have been brave enough to post here.

I'm glad you found us. *hugs tight*

Even using the fish method, you only needed three yellow tail damsels to do the job. They should have cost you at most 12$. How much did you pay for all those other fish that you did not need? The LFS owner almost assuredly knows that many will die during your ammonia cycle. He won't give you your money back on dead fish and he probably told you that up front. But he expects you to come back to him to replace them. The percs that don't die during the ammonia cycle will most likely kill each other until you are left with only one or two dominant percs.

Given your location, there are many wonderful LFS's near you and many hobbyists in your area that would be willing to help you so this LFS does not cheat you again. If you need help finding them, post a topic to the new reefkeepers forum or the general reefkeeping discussion forum. Someone there should be able to help you get in touch with a local reef club and a good LFS near you.

The solution to your problem, if you want to keep these fish alive, is to do regular water changes to keep ammonia levels to a minimum. Check the ammonia and nitrite levels daily and do water changes to reduce the amount until those levels read 0 (I'd recommend doing 5 gallon water changes every other day until ammonia and nitrite consistently read 0). This is an old axiom for the hobby, but it's true.

"The solution to pollution is dilution." My vet told me that one too.

Remember that, it comes in handy when water chemistry is off and you are confused about what to do. Using the regular water changes, you should be able to keep the ammonia down to levels that are less than toxic and also keep a majority of your fish alive. (I know, I had an lfs point me the the wrong way when I was new at this stuff too. It should help.).

I think I've rambled on enough for one day, but I hope that some of the things I've said have been useful. In addition to Chris's links, I'd like to add:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com and http://www.rshimek.com

WWM is the home of Bob Fenner and Anthony Calfo among many other experts who are among some of the more respected marine biologists in the hobby.

rshimek.com is the website of Dr. Ron Shimek, another notable marine biologist who offers advice to aquarists via the web.

These two sites, along with the reefs.org library should give you enough information to go on so that you can educate yourself and not have to depend on the advice of an LFS or anyone else unless you *choose* to do so.

You can do this and I think once you've read through the info on those sites, you will do amazingly well in this hobby. Good luck and if you get confused, don't be afraid to post here or click the PM button at the bottom of my posts. I will be glad to help you with any questions you have.

J.

 

[Andrea1]

You are so sweet...I appreciate your kind and sound advice..
Well, all the fish were free. The LR was $4.00 per pd. Usaually $5.50. I am sure he makes up the difference somewhere, but he does give us 10-15% off everytime we purchase and in the future, plus 3 months free service. He has become a friend we trust and we feel very confident in his methods. We went to another LFS yesterday, a very reputable one here and they know our guy very well. They said he is very good and they were not blown away by the fish added to the tank. They advised they they would have waited, a least a couple of days, but they said our guy is good and that is the way he does it. We felt better after talking to this guy for two hrs, about our process and much more confident in our guy...
The tests results today are as follows: Alkalinity: Norm, PH 8.2 Ammonia down to .25, Nitrite .5, Nitrate 10 SG 1.023, temp 77.8. No loss of fish..Growing coralline for the last couple of days, on the LR. We will do another water change Saturday to bring the nitrate down...
All is well here. Ammonia is down from yesterday...
I have to go now, but thank you so much for your advice...
God bless,
Andrea

 

[Jolieve]

Well, if he gave you the fish for free.. he must really believe in the way he does things there.. and if that's the case and you weren't cheated.. I feel like a jerk.

It's happened so many times though, that an lfs steers a newbie the wrong way, and the newbie spends months upon months trying to salvage what they worked so hard for, and spent so much money on. I guess I jumped to the conclusion that this was happening to you, and for that I apologize.

I do hope you will read those sites though, and learn as much as you can about this hobby on your own so that you can begin engaging in many enjoyable debates about reefkeeping methods

J.

 

[Anonymous]

I would give up $50.00 worth of fish to sell a couple thousand in dry goods any day :wink:

 

[ChrisRD]

The good news is that the rock in your system is obviously well cured. When starting a tank with enough well cured rock you can sometimes get away with stocking too quickly as long as the animals are hardy (damsels and clowns are extremely tough).

The bad news is, you're getting crappy advice locally and taking it. :wink: There are other reasons why most of us recommend not stocking the tank with fish immediately...

For example, if you allow the system some time with no fish, it gives your pod population a chance to get well established. Pods are excellent algae eaters and a great natural food source for your fish. Having them can help avoid algae problems in the future and contribute to fish health (nutrition). Another benefit of having no fish (no host animals) present for a while - some fish parasites that may have been on your live rock will die-off.

Even if we skip all of that, the number and species you've chosen to add to the system will be a problem in the future. As someone mentioned earilier, in time, a dominant pair of clowns will get established, and remaining ones may end-up being treated aggressively by the dominant pair.

Also, most species of damsels are notoriously aggressive - particularly as they mature. If they don't end-up killing each other, at the very least, it will be most difficult to add other fish to the system in the future without them being harassed. This is why many experienced reefkeepers avoid damsels all-together, or at least stick to the more docile species.

I'd encourage you to get some good books, email some of the noted experts/authors in the hobby, ask here, etc. before taking any more of the advice you're being given locally. Unfortunately, in this hobby, much of the advice coming out of LFSs is not so good.

At any rate, I wish you luck with your new setup.

 

[fishfirst]

I agree with ChrisRD, this guy you are getting advice from doesn't really respect the animals he is selling. I've been doing this stuff for three years, did all the newbie mistakes, (took advice from the LFS, added way to fast, didn't look up compatibility issues, etc.) and it cost me a grand in a half plus a grand to get it set up the right way. Even though your guy has given you the fish, its still no way to treat them. Remember water isn't just what fish swim in... its what they breath in. Ammonia in water acts like toxic fumes do in air. Why poison your fish when there are so many ways around it? Here is an article on ammonia and its affects on fish... do you really want your fish swimming around it irritatant filled water? http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/ammonia.htm
Don't get me wrong, he maybe a marine biologist or whatever, but he is seriously disrespectful and unresponsible of the organisms that he sells.
He also doesn't know the first thing about compatibility. Damsels DO NOT get along with much of anything in a tank. I had 1 false perc and 1 royal gramma get hammered by my two (yeah only two) damsels in my 55 gallon tank. They were my two favorite fish and they were literally torn apart. Now the damsels have a seperate tank, and the compatible fish have the 55 gallon (soon to be 125). Also clowns will pair up, and will kill other conspecifics in the tank... that means by by 16 fish, or possibly 14 depending on if the clowns feel there is enough room for them to have two pair. My suggestion... take them all back and do a fishless cycle. RESEARCH your fish before you buy... and take the LFS's advice with a grain of "salt"

 

[cjsrch]

with the advancesin filtration the biological load is almost limitless. altho you need to worry more about teritory as this will be used up long befor the bio load

 

[Len]

with the advancesin filtration the biological load is almost limitless. altho you need to worry more about teritory as this will be used up long befor the bio load

Bioload is not limitless. Closed ecosystems quickly bump into their capacity to cycle nutrients.

 

[cjsrch]

im saying you run in to territory problems long befor your filters cant support the life. ( healthy or not)

 

[Len]

Okay. Thanks for the clarification. The problem is that wasn't what you said:

with the advancesin filtration the biological load is almost limitless