First saltwater tank

[luca61]

Hi All,

I am saltwater newbie. I have a large freshwater tank, but this would be my first time with sw, be gentle.

I've been reading all I could on the subject (books, online), and I started browsing a few LFS... I think I'm narrowing down the kind of setup I'd like, but I do have a ton of questions.

I'd like to eventually have a tank that can possibly support lots of inverts and coral life, and a (light) fish stock.

This is what I came up with so far:

tank: glass, 120g, 48"x24"x24" pre-drilled - I guess this is from the LFS. I've seen they use both black and transparent silicone, is there a technical preference there? Any brands to avoid?

sump: Oceanic model 3 - mention this just because happens to be what one of the LFS has available. I don't think that this model has a refugium built in - alternatives?

light: coralife 48", 2x250MH + PC actinic OR Maristar 48" 2x250MH + T5 actinic - are these good brands, is the power adequate?

protein skimmer: euroreef RS-180 - is this adequate, alternatives?

main pump: mag 700 - is this an OK brand, also, is this about the right power for this setup?

I think that extra water movement will be needed on top of the returns from the sump, is this correct? What is the best way to achieve that?

RO unit: one of the LFS told me that our water (Vancouver) should be OK without using RO. Care to comment?

Heaters: 2x200W

Chiller: I figure this will be eventually a necessity when warmer weather returns, until then...

For substrate I was thinking of a 6-7" deep sand bed. Uncured LR ~150lb.

Please feel free to comment and point out all the things I'm missing, brand quality / size issues, brand alternatives, design flows....

luca

 

[mr_X]

hey!, welcome.

i don't know a tremendous amount, but it seems the majority vote is for the biggest skimmer you can get. way overkill. they say manufacturers suggested load is alittle off. in that case if you can buck up for the bigger skimmer..(maybe the 250) it might be worthwile.

hamilton lighting also makes some decent looking, well constructed lights.
i really don't think it matters what brand you buy as long as you have the right components inside. if a no-name company uses quality ballasts and the bulbs you want...i'd say, go with it. i would like twin 400 watt mh though. i have 2- 400watt mh in a 75 and i like it.

i don't think you need to spend that money on an oceanic sump when you can just get a tank drilled. bio chamber? you will not be using bio balls, so you don't need that little bio chamber either. get the biggest tank yuo can fit under your stand and have it drilled. if you wanted a fuge, then throw a couple extra baffles in. you will probably pick up alot of water volume, and alot more money to spend on something else.

main pump=mag700. main pump for what? to return your sump? i have one of those in my 125, and it seems ok. i think you could step that up some if you are able. it's not incredibly strong.

i am using tap water, and i am already seeing issues with it. if that's actually the case, that your tap water is of the correct parameters for a reef tank, then good for you! however, i wouldn't bank on that.

what tank you choose is your own personal preference. some look better than others, some use the different colored caulk, but they are all 5 glass panels stuck together. unless you go acrylic.

extra water movement at the top of the returns from the sump?..i'm not understanding that...

you can use powerheads to move water. or you can get a magdrive and hook it to a wavemaker... something like this:
http://www.reeffanatic.com/products/wav ... reator.asp

luca, there is no end to what you can do, if you have the money to do it.

 

[Anonymous]

This is what I came up with so far:

tank: glass, 120g, 48"x24"x24" pre-drilled - I guess this is from the LFS. I've seen they use both black and transparent silicone, is there a technical preference there? Any brands to avoid?

Oceanic is the cadilac of tanks, All-glass is good as well

sump: Oceanic model 3 - mention this just because happens to be what one of the LFS has available. I don't think that this model has a refugium built in - alternatives?

You can use a plain glass tank and glue in some baffles wo save a few dollars

light: coralife 48", 2x250MH + PC actinic OR Maristar 48" 2x250MH + T5 actinic - are these good brands, is the power adequate?

Light wattage should be fine

protein skimmer: euroreef RS-180 - is this adequate, alternatives?

Euroreef is a good skimmer

main pump: mag 700 - is this an OK brand, also, is this about the right power for this setup?

Might be able to go bigger but you dont have to I would go external pump is you could

I think that extra water movement will be needed on top of the returns from the sump, is this correct? What is the best way to achieve that?

Closed loops, Tunze streams are really good and reports from the Vortechs are good

RO unit: one of the LFS told me that our water (Vancouver) should be OK without using RO. Care to comment?

Test your tap water with a TDS meter. If its 0 or close to it then you may be OK.

Heaters: 2x200W

borderline IMO 2x300 might be better

Chiller: I figure this will be eventually a necessity when warmer weather returns, until then...

Try fans blowing on the sump to see if that works enought first

For substrate I was thinking of a 6-7" deep sand bed. Uncured LR ~150lb.

DSB's are fading out but so some research and find out how you want to run the tank

Please feel free to comment and point out all the things I'm missing, brand quality / size issues, brand alternatives, design flows....

Auto top off system, calcium dosing method, maintenance regime

 

[shavo]

yeah what they said, can you get more thorough? a lot of info in two posts

comment on my worms on my powder brown post!!!!

 

[luca61]

Might be able to go bigger but you dont have to I would go external pump is you could

OK.

Closed loops, Tunze streams are really good and reports from the Vortechs are good

Would 2 Tunze stream (6080?) work or you need more? I guess you need a controller too. Would a closed loop be cheaper?

Test your tap water with a TDS meter. If its 0 or close to it then you may be OK.

Will do.

borderline IMO 2x300 might be better

OK

DSB's are fading out but so some research and find out how you want to run the tank

This is very interesting, why are DSB fading out. Would you mind elaborate a bit on that? In the book I'm reading the author (Tullock) stresses the importance of a DSB for de-nitrification, I appreciate that it was written a few years ago. Also, without going too far, on the newbie guide here on reefs.org, is said that a DSB can be beneficial. Just trying to understand...

Auto top off system, calcium dosing method, maintenance regime

Definetely all things I'll have to do more research on. An auto top off system is something I could add when the tank is already up and running, isn't it?

thanks all for your replies,
luca

 

[trido]

DSB as apposed to Bare bottom is the newest big Reefing controversy. Alot of reefers are getting away from DSB feeling that it attributed to "old tank syndrome" thinking that the DSB just wasnt working properly anymore. Others feel that bare bottom leaves the tank to sterile for things to grow readily. Some set up tanks with DSB beacause certain fish require them to sleep and eat. Mostly You just have to go with your gut.

A closed loop would likely be less expensive than two tunzes and a contoller. Chek out this web site http://www.oceansmotions.com/store/prod ... b8a26a9652 Alot of people have these and are very happy.

AS far as a chiller. I live in Seattle and dont have one. A couple of fans can go a long way. On the few real hot days,(when it reaches a whopping 90F) turn the MH off and call it a cloudy day on the reef.

Here in Seattle my TDS from the tap is reading 32 right now. I would never use it in my tanks. You can pick a a decent RO/DI unit for just over $100 dollars. It is well worth it.

By the time you get enough corals to need to supplement calcium and such you will likely know what to by then anyway. But as far as you Auto Top Off. It is very convenient to have a bin of RO water that automatically refills evaporated water form the tank. My 120 goes through about three gallons a day so it is a must. I just purchaed on of these.. http://www.autotopoff.com/products/DS1/index.htm for my sump. It has a fail safe that helps prevent floods. Well worth the money. You simply hook it to a small power head or pump to refill the sump when it kicks on.

Also, I agree that 250 MH will be fine for most all your needs unless you specifically want a tank full of only SPS corals. Looks like your well on your way to jumping into the addiction. Good luck. :wink:

 

[luca61]

DSB as apposed to Bare bottom is the newest big Reefing controversy. Alot of reefers are getting away from DSB feeling that it attributed to "old tank syndrome" thinking that the DSB just wasnt working properly anymore. Others feel that bare bottom leaves the tank to sterile for things to grow readily. Some set up tanks with DSB beacause certain fish require them to sleep and eat. Mostly You just have to go with your gut.

I see. I guess that some more research is in order. I guess that the substrate plenums mentioned in the book fell out of fortune as well?

A closed loop would likely be less expensive than two tunzes and a contoller. Chek out this web site http://www.oceansmotions.com/store/prod ... b8a26a9652 Alot of people have these and are very happy.

Wow those are neat! May I ask what's the difference between the supersquirt and the 4 way, just capacity?

AS far as a chiller. I live in Seattle and dont have one. A couple of fans can go a long way. On the few real hot days,(when it reaches a whopping 90F) turn the MH off and call it a cloudy day on the reef.

I hear you. This won't be an issue for some time anyway.

Here in Seattle my TDS from the tap is reading 32 right now. I would never use it in my tanks. You can pick a a decent RO/DI unit for just over $100 dollars. It is well worth it.

I did not realize that they're so cheap. I guess it makes sense then.

By the time you get enough corals to need to supplement calcium and such you will likely know what to by then anyway. But as far as you Auto Top Off. It is very convenient to have a bin of RO water that automatically refills evaporated water form the tank. My 120 goes through about three gallons a day so it is a must. I just purchaed on of these.. http://www.autotopoff.com/products/DS1/index.htm for my sump. It has a fail safe that helps prevent floods. Well worth the money. You simply hook it to a small power head or pump to refill the sump when it kicks on.

Have to agree it can become annoying pretty fast.

Also, I agree that 250 MH will be fine for most all your needs unless you specifically want a tank full of only SPS corals. Looks like your well on your way to jumping into the addiction. Good luck. :wink:

Thanks, lots of good info to digest
luca

 

[SnowManSnow]

hey just my opinion.. but concentrate on one thing at a time.. research and purchase your tank and sump.. then plumb it.. then research skimmer.... lights.. that sort of thing. It was my experience that if I tried to see the BIG picture all at once I just ended up making some bad purchases. That being said you DO need a big picture as far as what you want your finnished product to be.. but at this point I wouldn't worry over the minuta. Take things slow and you'll build a nice tank that will last a long time.

b

 

[luca61]

hey just my opinion.. but concentrate on one thing at a time.. research and purchase your tank and sump.. then plumb it.. then research skimmer.... lights.. that sort of thing. It was my experience that if I tried to see the BIG picture all at once I just ended up making some bad purchases. That being said you DO need a big picture as far as what you want your finnished product to be.. but at this point I wouldn't worry over the minuta. Take things slow and you'll build a nice tank that will last a long time.

b

This sounds like a good strategy. I'm not in a hurry, and from what I read you better not be in this hobby.
The first step is actually rearranging some furniture in the house to free up a proper space for the tank. The second step would be trying to save enough cash... had no idea that this was such an expensive activity.

luca

 

[SnowManSnow]

once you get past the initial equipment shock it isn't so bad. once you get water circulating, skimmed, and lit, you can purchase your livestock over a period of months or even years 1 $50 coral per month is a lot easier to swallow than stocking your entire tank with $2000 worth of corals right off the bat... it also gives you a chance to learn as you go and nuke everything with one horrible mistake

you mentioned clearing out furnature... you're also going to want to make sure you have adequate flooring support for the size tank you're gonna put in.

B

 

[Anonymous]

hey just my opinion.. but concentrate on one thing at a time.. research and purchase your tank and sump.. then plumb it.. then research skimmer.... lights.. that sort of thing. It was my experience that if I tried to see the BIG picture all at once I just ended up making some bad purchases. That being said you DO need a big picture as far as what you want your finnished product to be.. but at this point I wouldn't worry over the minuta. Take things slow and you'll build a nice tank that will last a long time.

b

This sounds like a good strategy. I'm not in a hurry, and from what I read you better not be in this hobby.
The first step is actually rearranging some furniture in the house to free up a proper space for the tank. The second step would be trying to save enough cash... had no idea that this was such an expensive activity.

luca

(in case no one said this yet)
:welcome:

Sounds like a good start! IMO, best place to start is with a livestock "wish" list. Make sure you can accomodate the needs of your "must have" corals and/or fish. Build the system to those specifications! Different corals have different water quality issues, and a little research now saves BIG hassles later. Also, but the biggest best you can afford up front. No use going cheap and finding out 6 months down the road you need to replace a component.

Oh, and as far as not using RO water...very very few people have tapwater that is pure enough to not have issues with that. I'd learn a bit more about water chemestry, test your tapwater and go from there.

IMO/IME an RO system is not optional...it's a must have that saves a lot of grief later.

 

[luca61]

Sounds like a good start! IMO, best place to start is with a livestock "wish" list. Make sure you can accomodate the needs of your "must have" corals and/or fish. Build the system to those specifications! Different corals have different water quality issues, and a little research now saves BIG hassles later. Also, but the biggest best you can afford up front. No use going cheap and finding out 6 months down the road you need to replace a component.

Oh, and as far as not using RO water...very very few people have tapwater that is pure enough to not have issues with that. I'd learn a bit more about water chemestry, test your tapwater and go from there.

IMO/IME an RO system is not optional...it's a must have that saves a lot of grief later.

Thanks for the welcome part. I'm reading this 'don't be cheap' advice a lot, it must be true. I am figuring that, for a 120g, the damage it's somewhere around $4-5000, 'before' I start putting any livestock into the tank. :|

As far as my livestock wishlist, not terribly original I'm afraid... Some Clownfish and relative Anemone will have to be there; a Six-line Wrasse, some orange-lined cardinalfish, SPS coral, tridacna clams, cleaner shrimp, fire shrimp. Would all this guys all get along? With this kind of load, will I have any room to add some fish down the road or is pretty much it?

A few more questions...
- power outages: we recently had a 13 hrs power outage. This is very unusual, still we had a couple of long outages since we moved (6 yrs ago).
All our computers are protected by UPS's, but I hate to think how much an UPS capable of handling the aquarium's heaters etc. for half a day would cost. I'm not even sure of what kind of damage would occur if no measures are taken.

- Sand bed: what's the consensus these days for how deep a sand bed should be: 3, 4"? And what kind of sand (Aragonite?)

- how much water should be going through the sump/ refugium, and how much water should circulate in total (compared to the tank volome)?

- LR: I was thinking uncured, is it OK? LR is the main biological filter, so, how much should go in, the more the better (without the tank looking like a pile of rubble)? Should there be LR in the refugium?

Hope the questions aren't too silly,
luca

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the welcome part. I'm reading this 'don't be cheap' advice a lot, it must be true. I am figuring that, for a 120g, the damage it's somewhere around $4-5000, 'before' I start putting any livestock into the tank. :|

That's because it's true :lol: your figure sounds about right, this hobby isn't for the faint of wallet .

As far as my livestock wishlist, not terribly original I'm afraid... Some Clownfish and relative Anemone will have to be there; a Six-line Wrasse, some orange-lined cardinalfish, SPS coral, tridacna clams, cleaner shrimp, fire shrimp. Would all this guys all get along? With this kind of load, will I have any room to add some fish down the road or is pretty much it?

Probably would get along. My only comment would be that IME, a clown and anemone sometimes do much better in a tank without other coral. Put another way, any coral may be better off without the anemone. Anemones can get problematic with coral, as they can move, and sting, any coral in the tank with it. Now I know others will disagree, but that has been my esperience.

As far as SPS, your setup may not be the best for some of the SPS corals, as they like a nutrient-poor (usually bare bottom-no sandbed at all) with high flow. Again, that depends on the specific species and I am far from an SPS expert.

A few more questions...
- power outages: we recently had a 13 hrs power outage. This is very unusual, still we had a couple of long outages since we moved (6 yrs ago).
All our computers are protected by UPS's, but I hate to think how much an UPS capable of handling the aquarium's heaters etc. for half a day would cost. I'm not even sure of what kind of damage would occur if no measures are taken.

Well for the most part as long as the heat stays relatively stable in the house, most tanks can be maintained with only portable battery operated air pumps like those they sell for live bait.

- Sand bed: what's the consensus these days for how deep a sand bed should be: 3, 4"? And what kind of sand (Aragonite?)

That depends on who you ask and the application it is for. IMO for your setup 3 inches should be adequate.

- how much water should be going through the sump/ refugium, and how much water should circulate in total (compared to the tank volome)?

The general thought pattern there is to turn over 10 times the tank volume in an hour, and most overflows are rated that way.

- LR: I was thinking uncured, is it OK? LR is the main biological filter, so, how much should go in, the more the better (without the tank looking like a pile of rubble)? Should there be LR in the refugium?

Hope the questions aren't too silly,
luca

They aren't silly at all Luca. How much rock depends on the quality the better the rock i.e. more poreous (more area for bacteria) the better. So the old "rule of thumb" 1 lb/per gallon isn't necessarily true. I'd have at least 75 lbs in there myself. As far as the tank looking like rubble do a search here on aquascaping, you'll be surprised how a little creativity nets out a nice looking tank. Cured or uncured makes little difference, just as far as time wise. the uncured rock will ofcourse take longer to cycle.

LR is the 'fuge again is a matter of choice and setup specific.

 

[SnowManSnow]

for a nice and good priced RODI unit check www.buckeyefieldsupply.com

B

 

[luca61]

Probably would get along. My only comment would be that IME, a clown and anemone sometimes do much better in a tank without other coral. Put another way, any coral may be better off without the anemone. Anemones can get problematic with coral, as they can move, and sting, any coral in the tank with it. Now I know others will disagree, but that has been my esperience.

As far as SPS, your setup may not be the best for some of the SPS corals, as they like a nutrient-poor (usually bare bottom-no sandbed at all) with high flow. Again, that depends on the specific species and I am far from an SPS expert.

Spot on advice, Lawdowg. 8O I was at the LFS yesterday, and the guy commented about anemone and SPS as possibly not the best tank mates (different preferred nutrient levels, Anemone potentially harming the corals). Not that it could be done, but it adds a level of complication. I guess I could live without SPS, or try to introduce them later when I more sure of what I'm doing, the tank is stable...

I still like a 4'x2'x2' size for the tank, and eventually going to paint the back black. For the front glass: the LFS recommended starfire glass (add ~$100), and laminar glass for the back (add more $$), because of the weakening caused by drilling the holes for the closed loop.

He kinda talked me out of the Tunze stuff, probably not working at its best in just a 4' long tank. Also he's not a strong believer in 'small' refugi, doesn't think that you can fit anything that would make a big difference under a 48" cabinet, so it'd be just a sump. ASM was deemed equilvalent to EuroReef, quality-wise...

Hope you guys don't mind if I keep bouncing a few ideas back and forth, please keep the great advice coming.

luca

 

[Anonymous]

Spot on advice, Lawdowg. ...

Thanks..

Hope you guys don't mind if I keep bouncing a few ideas back and forth, please keep the great advice coming.

luca

No problem whatever, that's what this board is for!

 

[DaveMorris1]

On the sandbed question...I ran a 90g with a 6" sandbed for four years and I feel that it worked great. I had a plethera of worms, bugs, and creepy crawlies that all of my research told me was good. Read up on some of Ron Shimek's articles on the subject. 6" is probably a little big...I am using 3" in my newish 125g. JMO...

As far as the RO/DI question...I never really hear too many people talk about the tremendous waste water when they talk about cost for RO/DI water. Be careful...some of these units waste as much as 10 gallons of water for every gallon of good water they produce. Here in San Diego, that gets expensive. I have a WaterBoy system in my house and it produces excellant water. I have had it tested extensively and it comes out super clean and I have had no problems using it. Check them out at: http://www.superiorwater.com/how.html Mine cost about $1500 but it produces clean filtered water from every tap in the house. Kind of like a water softener but with no salt or potassium and no slimy feeling water. OK sales pitch over.

 

[ChrisRD]

Although I agree that waste water generation is something to consider when choosing an RO or RO/DI system, a 10 to 1 waste to product water ratio is not typical in a correctly functioning unit (at least with systems normally used in the hobby). A correctly adjusted unit should be more like 3 or 4 to 1.