Help! Ich attack!! :(

[keving]

I've had my aquarium for almost 3 months with relatively no issue (lost a few chromi's during the nitrogen cycling process). A few days ago I lost my yellow watchman goby. By the time I figured out what it was (ich) he was lethargic and on the outs. I was able to give him a freshwater bath, but he died the next day (Deionized H2O bath was same temp at 79 deg. with no additives).

Today I lost my coral beauty angel as I was preparing a bath (seemed to be a quicker process!). The other fish are showing signs by hiding in corners and the white spots. I bought some Kordon Ich Inhibitor (100% organic & reef safe) and administered this morning at the highest recommended dose. I have a coral and feather duster along with a lot of live rock. Water has been normal for nitrates (0), nitrites (0), pH (8.3) and KH (10) pretty consistantly for a couple months.

I have also been rubbing garlic past on the algea I clip to the inside for my yellow tang (beauty was also eating it). This was suggested to me by my LFS to get rid of ich. That doesn't seem to have worked.

I don't have a quaranteen tank (but I'm seeing that as a necessity now). It feels so helpless watching these cool little guys die off one by one! (
Does anyone have any other suggestions or advice?

Bumming in Seattle...

 

[LA-Lawman]

does your tang eat frozen food? if so. get some garlic xtreme and thaw the frozen food in the garlic... then feed.

I use the kordon ich attack and i use it as a food soak. i would probably pick up some zoe and zoecon and insure your fish are getting the right nutients they need for a healthy immune system... be sure you are varing their diet. cyclop-eeze, other frozen, flake or pellets...

if they all die..... i know that is a bad thought.... no fish for 60 days.... let the ich die out I think gestation (spelling) is 30 days.....

 

[keving]

Thanks lawman. I've given them a pretty varied diet- frozen & flake. I was talking to someone earlier and we came to the conclusion that it was the large yellow tang I purchased last week that brought on the ich. I will definitely be setting up a quaranteen tank going forward. I really sucks watching your cool fish die helplessly before your vary eyes!

Geeze, 60 days if they all die out?? That shouldn't be a problem- I can't freakin afford any more! LOL Hopefully they don't all die out on me. I'm actually getting a fully established 120 gal this weekend, so that should keep me occupied.

Thanks again for the reply & suggestions!

 

[shavo]

1. do you have a cleaner shrimp or a cleaner wrasse???

2. what is your salinity level right now??

3. temperature???

4. have a UV sterilizer with the new 120?

one thing is this is 3 months with this tank, IMO/IME it isn't fully established. I didn't feel comfotable with mine at 3 months in actually.

anyhow ich sucks and I dealt with it early on. you really should get yourself a QT tank if your going to add more livestock from the LFS.

 

[keving]

Thnaks for the reply Shavo. No cleaners currently. Added a bamboo shirmp a few weeks ago and the zebra damsels (territorial little b#@# lol) scared it to death- literally, it died the next morning. Haven't added any others but had been looking around. Of course I won't be adding anything until this crap gets resolved. I do have a couple turbo snails, but that's it right now in the cleaning dept.

Salinity has been consistant at 30 ppt (SG 1.0225) and temp steady at 79 deg.

Yes, new 120 has a UV sterilizer and I will probably be buying one for the 46 as well. Was talking to the owner extensively last night about all this ich and other issues, maint, etc. Real nice guy and he's been doing reefs for 15-20yrs so I'll be picking his brain (along with all yours!) for some time to come!

Update on ich and inhabitants:

Woke up this morning to a dead zebra damsel with the second one hiding or dead as well. The clarki clown is hanging in there but still reclusive (expect to lose him too any hour, but who knows- he's been like this for 2 days now). Tang is still floating around quite a bit, but this morning has brown areas covering her nose and around the eyes. Not sure if this is a secondary infection due to the ich, or possibly due to the ich attack treatment??

Here is my bio load:
-Large yellow tang
-Clarki Clown
-Zebra damsel
-green chromi
-small blue damsel (size of a chromi, not sure of actual name- sold as an "assorted damsel")
-2 turbo snails
- baby turbo and a tiny star fish that "appeared" majically last week

Also have:
-Bali Zo. coral (doing really well)
-hawaiian feather duster

In hind-site adding the large Tang probably overcrowded the 46 gal and stressed them all making them suceptable to the ich. Couldn't help it, it was such a beauty!

Lessons learned to date from this fiasco:
1) A hospital tank is a MUST!
2) New fishes should be in QT for a month before introducing to main tank
3) Buy smaller fish and let them grow up in tank. Larger fish may be newly captured & may not survive or do as well (this was an oppinion that sounds logical)
4) It's hard to catch them little fishes with all that live rock!!
4) Ich is NASTY and can be expensive!!

I'll upload some pictures I've been taking, just haven't gotten around to it yet. As always, comments and/or suggestions are always welcome!

Cheers,

 

[shavo]

well live and learn, that is all. I disagree with the smaller fish being the better choice. I think that depends I have always thought that the larger the fish the stronger to survive.

also you can get your salinity down some at this point to help out

how come you don't go buy a skunk cleaner shrimp right now? if the fish are infected they know to go to him to get cleaned. that is what my fish do!

 

[Kevin1000]

My 02

You should setup a QT to hold all of your surviving fish and treat with hypo-salinity .. thats an SG of 1.009. If you leave your ST without fish for at least 5-6 weeks any ich within the tank should naturally die off (ich need a fish to continue their life cycle).

Garlic may stimulate appetite which may improve overall health but it has no direct positive impact on ich. The article that many use to support the garlic theory actually says the opposite of what most think. FW dips are not effective on ich since many of the trophonts are buried too deep within the fish for the osmotic change to have any impact. The surviving trophonts will naturally fall off later to generate more ich. UV is not an effective method of eradicating ich ... most UV devices are designed to eliminate bacteria/algae not protozoan parasites and ich simply doesn't stay in the water column long enough for a UV device to have much impact.

Heres a good link of ich .. within the treatment section you should find information on how to use hypo- salinity as well as set up a QT.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevo ... neich.html

Hope this helps.

 

[keving]

Thank you both for the input. The link was helpful. On my way to LFS to get a QT set up, but it may be too late. The tang now has what appear to be lessions (red spots) so it's deteriorating pretty quick.

If they have any skunk shrimp I'll get one, their pretty cool anyway. I'm assuming they aren't affected by ich like other invertibrates?

Thanks guys.

 

[Kevin1000]

Red spots are a sign of a bacterial issue ... probably a result of the wounds sustained by the ich. Often the fish's own immune system will fix this but you can always add a double dose of Maracyn 2 in the QT (won't interfere with hypo treatment).

Cleaner shrimp and cleaner fish will not get rid of ich .. thats an old myth. To my knowledge there is no record of a cleaner shrimp having ich within its stomach content. On the positive side cleaner shrimp are attractive and a nice addition to the tank and they will climb all over your hand to clean you with or w/o ich.

Hope this helps.

 

[shavo]

or you could keep the salinity level exactly how it is and dose with copper. don't put the cleaner shrimp in the copper tank!!!

if the tang is eating regularly and swimming good, you should be ok but if he looks lethargic and loss of appetite you might be in trouble.

good luck!

 

[keving]

Set up the quasi-QT (more like a triage tank) last night. I got the SG down to 1.018. Didn't have a filter but added a bubbler for oxygen, a heater and a couple pieces of PVC for them to hide in. This morning, in an apparent assisted suicide (I didn't have a top on the 10gal), Mr. Tang apparently couldn't take any more and jumped. Poor guy was stiff as a board laid out on the carpet.

The clown has a pretty bad case of fin-rot now. I'm off to the LFS to see about a top for the QT and something for the finrot. Any other advice on the QT? Do I need lights? 8O

 

[Kevin1000]

Lights are not important in a QT .. a nearby desk lamp is fine.

As far as a top .. many prefer to use an eggcrate light difuser .. sold at most home depot/lowes stores. .. its easy to cut down to size.

As far as salinity .. take it down to 1.009 (best to use a refractometer if you can get your hands one one) .. and remember how hypo works. Most think it kills ich on the fish but thats not true ... hypo works by preventing tomonts from hatching. As such your just interrupting the ich life cycle and you won't see any immediate improvement in the fish. Fish can readily accept quick reductions in salinity so you really don't have to go slow in getting SG down to 1.009 .. on the reverse side, however, take a few days to bring salinity back up to norm.

Maracyn2 works fine for minor bacterial issues such as fin rot .. used to be sold in Petco/Petsmsarts .. use twice the recommended dosage.

When running a QT its always good to have a ready supply of pre-made aged SW handy ... comes in handy if you have water quality issues. You will find that a mixture of 2/3'rd normal SW and 1/3 FW/RO will get you close to 1.009 (can always fine tune). Also remember that your goal when running a QT is to have ZERO ammonia .. even if that takes frequent large water changes.

Good luck.

 

[keving]

Thanks for the advice Kevin. Unfortunately the clown died before I got home. Oh well... I can still play doctor on the remaining chromi. I got a good deal on a 10 gal tank setup, complete with hood/light, filter & heater for $45 at Petsmart. I'm sure it's overkill for a QT, but it's a little more asthetically pleasing. My fiance pointed out "that sure is a lot of stuff for one chromi!" LOL At least I'm set up now for a QT and have a clue what to do should I ever encounter ich again.

Thanks to all of you for your advice. I'm anxious to get my new 120 reef setup. Will post pics when all is said & done!

Cheers!

 

[shavo]

sorry you lost the fish.... you shouldn't have an ich outbreak if you wait out the display for a month or so and use the qt tank for new additions. I have my qt tank dosed with copper and the salinity the same as my display so there isn't much of a acclimation time when it is time to move them.

 

[Kevin1000]

My 02

Its a good idea to always keep extra filter media tucked away in your sump or hidden behind some live rock in your show tank ... that filter media will develop beneficial bacteria over time and when you want to run a QT all you have to do is place that filter media into your QT filter and you have instant cycled QT. I keep a number of sponge blocks in my sump .. allows me to quickly setup a cycled QT and the extra sponges come in handy if I am forced to use antibiotics and other medications which destroy the biological filter.

Copper is not something you want to use unless you have to. While it is effective on ich and some parasites its useless on brooklnyella and many other diseases. Copper is basically chemo therapy and harsh on all fish and considered a deadly medication of last resort with some fish like tangs and puffers. Further its hard to administer (too little and it not effective ... too much and you kill your fish) and requires constant testing to insure you have the proper dosage. Lastly .. all copper products aren't the same and the same goes with test kits. Many would argue that Cupramine copper is one of the least harsh coppers on the market and the only one I would consider for a Tang or Puffer .. however many copper test kits won't accurately measure Cupramine and you need to make sure the one you have works.

Hope this

 

[keving]

Good advice, thanks. I like the idea of putting filter media in my sump, will do. I know I have to somehow get that damn blue damsel out of my display tank, but the SOB is too quick! 8O LOL I could just wait for it to die or get sick (not really showing signs of ich!), or even not feed it a couple days, all of which sound mean.

On the other hand, my 6 weeks of "no fish" can't start until the tank has absolutely no vertibrates (aka that damn little damsel). Even if this fish shows no signs my assumption is it can still host the theronts during the ich infective stage. Do either of you know for sure?

Next question about the hyposalinity tank. Can I be adding new fish over the next 6 weeks while I try to kill off the ich or would I risk infection of the new fish? I know there is only 1 fish (a $4.99 value! ) in the QT, but this is an experiment at this point. I don't however want to wait 12 weeks or more before I can add new fish to my display. Thoughts? Experiences?

 

[Kevin1000]

You need to remove all fish from the ST if you want to gaurantee that ich will die off. Remember that you can't detect a low level of ich infestation (no one brings home a fish they think has ich) but a single theront can generate hundreds of additional ich within a short period of time .. that rapid growth rate in a confined area is what makes ich deadly.

Damsels can be a PIA to catch. I am not a damsel fan so my first choice would be "go fishing" .. literally. I would go down to the store and purchase a very small fishing hook and go fishing ... you can bend back the barbs which will minimize the damage to the fish.

You can add other fish into your hypo QT ... fish really don't need to be acclimated to salinity reductions but they do need to be acclimated to salinity increases. The "time in QT" should be measured by the date of the last fish addition to the QT for both fish .. (just assume that the new fish infected the old fish to be safe). Further ... you don't want to place any fish back into the ST for 5-6 weeks measured from the date you got rid of the damsel.

When your in a stocking mode I don't recommend QTing more than a couple of fish at a time. Its easier to run a QT with less fish and each fish you purchase has a chance of having a different disease and treating more than one disease at a time can be a challenge and occasionally impossible because some medications are incompatible (ie copper/formalin).

 

[yacn]

I have used Kick Ich with great results. I have a 3 1/2 month old reef tank with fish, inverts, corals and feather duster. Nothing died while treating tank. all fish looked great after treatment. Must finish treatment as recommended on bottle to ensure it doesn't come back.

 

[mr_X]

sorry to read about your troubles bro.
fyi, i had a powder brown tang that i treated successfully with "coppersafe", in a QT.
i was able to net him from the main display, and then treated him in the QT while i lowered the salinity in the main display. it was only 3 weeks with a salinity of .015, but i guess i got lucky.

if i was you, i'd do one fish at a time. qt, then display...then a second fish....repeat....
why rush it? a little temporary anxiety is better than a repeat of what you just went through. good luck.

 

[amathews]

I am dealing with ich as we speak, I removed all fish- 3 chromis, Six-Line Wrasse, Brownbarred Goby, Maroon Clown and a Crowned pearlyscale Butterflyfish- into a 33 gal hospital tank (Salinity 1.019 and a half, temp. 80 degrees)and treated with Cupramine. Following directions on the bottle, I dosed tank on Sunday and tested with a Freshwater/Saltwater Copper Test Kit made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. I was going to dose again tonight, (48 hours between 1st and 2nd treatment) but now after reading that my test kit may not be the right one, I am hesitant to treat again. I was already questioning the use of Copper in the first place and have a 5.5 gallon tank set up next to it with no copper (Salinity 1.021, temp. 79 degrees) in which I was going to put the wrasse and maybe one other cuz it's too small for much more then that right? Anyway, back to my question, what kind of copper test kit is needed to get accurate results if I am treating with Cupramine? I posted a question yesterday asking for help but have got no replies yet (My entry was a little long but I tried keeping it short and still getting all the info "Fairly new to hobby......" Thanks in advance for taking the time to read through my rambling by the way and I will very much appreciate any advice given![/i]