Canister filters vs Sumps

[coral_beauty]

Hi everyone ,

As you can see this is my first post so I wanted to use it for the thing that is bothering me the most... canister filters vs sumps!

I am relatively new to the hobby so I've been doing a lot of reading. Most things I've read have detailed the benefits of canisters/sumps, rather than the downside to each. So, I guess I'm asking why WOULDN'T I choose one or the other? Which is more difficult with regards to maintenance etc? I like the idea of a sump to hide equipment etc but I'm worried about excessive evaporation wrecking my cabinet and constant maintanence (topping it up).

I dont know if it helps, but I have a 3ft 200L (~50g) reef setup that I bought complete with fish and live rock - so I haven't had to do much to the tank (except add a chiller and protein skimmer!!!). It is running the initial canister filter that came with it, but since its old and needs replacing soon I thought now was a good time to find out the answer to the eternal filtration question: sump or canister?

 

[shavo]

well you can use a canister filter, however you have to constantly clean it. As it is working and picking up food and crap and stuff that stuff gets trapped in the canister filter and starts to produce nitrates. I wouldn't use one personally on a salt tank because I don't have time for filter cleaning. but my oscar tank it's fine for. I have had a DIY refugium going and it is basically maintenance free and all I have to do is top offs and water changes.

The sump idea is also better for more water volume as you have more room for mistakes or problems.

You will have evaporation either way and always need to top off. I think that topping off a tank is much easier than cleaning a canister filter weekly. you can try to cover everything real good.

Hope this helps.

 

[TheJGMProject]

I would go with a sump as well. You can suppliment your tank in this area, add more live rock to the system for increased filtration, and add a skimmer to your system too :wink:

 

[dnorton1978]

Make that 3 people for sumps. I had a canister filter many moons ago( about 1 year ago). The only way to avoid the routine cleaning of them is to remove all of the bio stuff inside. That way you are running it empty.

The sump is the best way to go. Now I don't recommend a wet dry filter. Please do not confuse the two.

 

[mr_X]

i vote sump.
you can try to cover as much of it as you can to cut some evap. like cut a piece of plexiglass enough to cover everything but the in/out lines and skimmer.
even without bio balls, or biological media, the cannister filter will still produce nitrate eventually.
also, you can add a section in your sump for refugium, and fill it with macroalgae to also help with biological filtration. you mentioned having live rock in your display- this is part of your biological filtration. enough of that and you don't need the cannister anyway. all you need is something to catch floating matter, which is your skimmer.

as far as your evaporation ruining your stand- i have a steel stand that is simply spray painted. if evaporation was going to wreck something, it would have attacked this by now(i add atleast 5 gallons a day). but i don't see any negative effects as of yet.
i think it will take many years of evap for anything to happen to the wood.

 

[IslandCrow]

The way I see it, you're comparing apples to oranges here. Here is what I would consider the functions of a sump:

1) Increase total water volume
2) Provide an area out of sight to "hide" unsightly equipment

A canister filter will not do any of these things. Am I saying sumps are great and canister filters aren't? No. A canister filter is a great vehicle for extra filtration. You can use it for micron filters, carbon, phosban, and probably a whole host of other things. Once a month, I break out my canister filter and micron filter and put it down in my sump for one week to keep my water nice and crystal clear.

What I'm saying is there is no need to compare the two. Instead, decide what you need most. If you need extra water volume to keep your system more stable or a place to hide that protein skimmer, you want a sump. If you want extra filtration, get a canister filter. If you want both. . .get both. Hope that helps.

 

[shavo]

dnort? your back??? it's been a while my friend, sorry i didn't hit the lottery

BTW it would be about 12 moons

 

[Snowboarda42]

it takes about 5 minutes to clean out my canister filter

 

[coral_beauty]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the help.

Now I don't recommend a wet dry filter. Please do not confuse the two.

Just so I'm clear, what is the difference between a sump and wet/dry filter? It seems to me that a lot of people use the two terms interchangeably.

My tank already has tons of live rock (probably too much for it to look good, but good for filtration) and a protein skimmer, so I'm guessing that the filtration is enough... especially because at the moment there are only 3 fish, 2 anemones, 4 small corals living in there! not much of a bio-load methinks.

The interesting thing is that the guru at my LFS reckons you dont have to clean the canisters very often at all (ie like once a month). He advocates removing all filter sponges etc and just having ceramic noodles or whatever u like in there. He tells me sumps are outdated technology thats more expensive, and more time consuming and you cant go away because u need to top up the water level too often. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

I'm also concerned about installing the sump since the tank is already established. I would need an overflow box thingy but if the siphon gets damaged the sump could empty into my tank and cause a flood. I know, i know, i worry too much...

You can use it for micron filters, carbon, phosban, and probably a whole host of other things. Once a month, I break out my canister filter and micron filter and put it down in my sump for one week to keep my water nice and crystal clear.

BTW, whats a micron filter?

 

[zann]

I use a canister filter only because my tank isnt drilled.
i dont want to take the chance of the u tube loseing siphen and a flood happening.
if i had a drilled tank then i would most likely use a sump .
i dont trust the people at the lfs all they are doing is trying to sell you something. and there prices are marked up over 80% most of the time .
like a magnum 350 filter system at the Lfs it is 159.00 ,i can get it online for 75.00 and pay next day air and still come out cheaper.

 

[shavo]

coral beauty, i think your guru at the LFS may be a little off. Just let me get it straight. The Guru thinks sumps are outdated technology??? or wet/dry's are out dated technology. I also disagree with the ceramic noodles (or whatever else you want in there???) what else??? also, these like bio balls will start to collect a ton of crap and create nitrates in your tank they need to be cleaned occasionally. I have a canister filter on my fresh water tank and I have never cleaned it in 5 minutes time.

zann, it isn't as dangerous as you think it to be with loosing a syphon. ocassionally my power goes out and after power kicks back on the syphon is still there. also there are overflow boxes that have a air pump on them so that this doesn't happen. one other thing, the only way that it would overflow and flood anything is if you have too much water in the tank. before you do anything when your setting up the sump you set your levels for when your topping off so even if you do loose your syphon it will not overflow because there isn't enough water in the tank to have that physically happen. I taped off my limits on my sump for the highest level and the lowest level for operation so I have no problems if I stay between the lines.

 

[coral_beauty]

I also disagree with the ceramic noodles (or whatever else you want in there???) what else???

As in bio balls, clay balls etc etc - the abundance of stuff u can use in ur filter that all do the same job, just to varying degrees. Sorry, I probably should've been clearer.

Dont get me worng, I dont believe everything they tell me at the LFS, but this guy does actually seem to know what he's talking about and have morals, and wont sell u something just for the sake of it (he gets paid regardless of how much he sells, and a sump from that shop costs more than a canister). All the display tanks in the store are run on canisters. That being said, there's another guy there who is very much a sump guy, he just doesnt seem to have the knowledge that the first guy has. I suppose this filter question its a personal preference really.

With regard to the outdated technology, the term he used was sump. But like I said, sump and wet/dry filter seem to be used ambiguously. What's the difference?

Thanks again, and keep the replies coming!

 

[ChrisRD]

A sump is just a glass/acrylic box where we house skimmers, heaters, probes, etc.

A wet/dry is similar except that it generally has some type of drip plate, spray bar, etc. that distributes water over a plastic/foam media which acts as an aerobic filtration area. Fine for fish only systems but generally avoided in modern reef setups.

If you have adequate live rock and a good skimmer your basic filtration needs are already covered (no need for wet/drys, canisters, etc.).

 

[coral_beauty]

Ah ok, I get it now....

By that definition then, I think he meant a wet/dry. He was crapping on about filter media. I think they also call them minireefs?

Anyway, so you guys reckon I might not need a filter at all? This is a pretty foreign concept to me because u always get it drummed into u that u can never have too much filtration. So naturally i thought a filter would be a good start.

Well that would sure cut down on some noise... my current canister is old and rattles.

What do you guys think for my situation? My tank specs as best I can describe them are here:

 

[coral_beauty]

Ah ok, I get it now....

By that definition then, I think he meant a wet/dry. He was crapping on about filter media. I think they also call them minireefs?

Anyway, so you guys reckon I might not need a filter at all? This is a pretty foreign concept to me because u always get it drummed into u that u can never have too much filtration. So naturally i thought a filter would be a good start.

Well that would sure cut down on some noise... my current canister is old and rattles.

What do you guys think for my situation? My tank specs as best I can describe them are here: http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=104447

 

[jahorgos]

As long as you keep a good balanced tank with live rock, sand and the proper janitors and do your water changes there is no need for heavy filtration. BUT I would use a filter pad type media to catch little particles and stuff to keep your tank nice and clear of debris. I have a filter pad sitting on a peice of plastic grating where the water return line comes in to the sump. So as the water dumps into the sump it goes through this media. I also have more grating where my pump connects to the sump and put a pad infront of that where I catch any last bit of particles trying to return to the tank. Two may be over kill but I like it.

I rinse these pads and reuse them a few times before replacing them.

 

[jahorgos]

Oh and try to find more than one LFS because there might be better ones by you. As well my local fish store will open up the bottom of there cabinets to let me see there setups upon request. I did this when I first started to help get some ideas for myself.

Oh and sumps are FOR THE WIN!!!

 

[IslandCrow]

Realize that you do in fact have quite a bit of filtration in your system already. We tend to think of filters as mechanical, but in a reef system, your biological filters are even more important. Your rock and sand are your biological filters, converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen gas. Your protein skimmer is providing your mechanical filtration, removing dissolved organic compounds (DOC) before they can decompose. That's really all the filtration you need. I'm a big fan of running chemical filtration in the form of carbon, mainly because I keep both soft and hard corals in a relatively confined space. It's also nice if any foreign chemicals inadvertantly find their way into my tank. I originally bought my canister filter as a place to run my carbon, but these days, I just use a filter sock on the drain line into my sump, so the canister filter just gets used periodically for the micron filter. I don't consider this a significant source of filtration, though. It's just to get some of the suspended particles out of the water to make it look clearer.

Most people who have been doing this for awhile will have a sump. It's much more of a blessing than a hastle and really makes for a nicer display. As for overflow boxes, even with the hang on back (HOB) variety, there is at least one that claims you will never lose a siphon, and after seeing the genius of the design (and owning one for almost a year now), I believe it. They're called Lifereef prefilter boxes (http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html). They're a bit pricey, but well worth the investment. Also, if you design your system right, neither a loss of power or siphon will cause a flood. Some people seem to think the risk of an overflowing sump is something you just have to live with, but I promise you, it is not.

 

[pinchharmonic]

followup question,

what stuff do you guys put in your own sumps?

i heard, protein skimmer, more live rock, sand, thermometer, filter floss

and I take it that if you have a sump, you don't need a cannister filter, or a foam filter or any other type of filter in your tank. the sump is all you need. (besides a bunch of powerheads for water movement and Live rock in the tank itself).

 

[pinchharmonic]

I hear a lot of distinction between reef tanks and fish tanks.

So is there a limit on the number of fish you can keep in a reef tank before it comes another type of tank? reef + fish tank? Seems like most people don't stock too many fish in their reef tank.

would a heavily fish populated reef tank be fundamentally different than a sparsely populated one?