Trying to build Sump/Refugium. Any good info or links? I have a fish tank picked out, kinda got some basic ideas about baffles... I just still feel uncomfortable trying to do it so I can't actually buy anything then. I don't entirely understand how to decide the height of baffles, how you can set the water depth in each section, etc. I guess I just barely understand some basics.
How the hell does one build a Sump/Refugium?
- Thread starter scifi_3d_zoo
- Start date
First you need to decide what you want in your sump, then you will know how to design it. Are you thinking building it yourself or jerry rigging something else?
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/9/diy/view?searchterm=suzy [url=http://www.advancedaquarist.c...w.advancedaquarist.com/2007/7/ ... hterm=suzy[/url]
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/9/diy/view?searchterm=suzy [url=http://www.advancedaquarist.c...w.advancedaquarist.com/2007/7/ ... hterm=suzy[/url]
SKimmer... fuge... return. Typical. I had a 30 gal glass tank in mind for my 90gal reef. I have a sump now with a built-in skimmer... I never clean it. My tank is either beyond perfect or that skimmer sucks. I got too much stuff expiring in my tank for it to be perfect.
I'll check that link out. Some basic info. I've been all over Melevs site but I still have a lot of questions. I don't know what heights to have, how you control the water level in each section, gotta know a bit of skimmer specifics to know what it needs to operate but in general I figured that area shouldn't be more than 9" deep. I was reading some stuff after doing a search here and saw some of the problems other people were having. That's what I don't want to do. I don't want to take my sump all apart like that and have tons of problems for weeks. I"m really unsure about the whole thing. SOme of the stuff I was reading was bout fuge sand beds being stirred up, either too much flow going through the sump, or too many bubbles. I'm not sure exactly what pumps I have now on my return and skimmer. But I don't use ball valves or anything like that to control the flow. SO if I ever figure all of this out I'll have to figure out what skimmer to get too.
I'll check that link out. Some basic info. I've been all over Melevs site but I still have a lot of questions. I don't know what heights to have, how you control the water level in each section, gotta know a bit of skimmer specifics to know what it needs to operate but in general I figured that area shouldn't be more than 9" deep. I was reading some stuff after doing a search here and saw some of the problems other people were having. That's what I don't want to do. I don't want to take my sump all apart like that and have tons of problems for weeks. I"m really unsure about the whole thing. SOme of the stuff I was reading was bout fuge sand beds being stirred up, either too much flow going through the sump, or too many bubbles. I'm not sure exactly what pumps I have now on my return and skimmer. But I don't use ball valves or anything like that to control the flow. SO if I ever figure all of this out I'll have to figure out what skimmer to get too.
I just set up a 90g for a friend and used a 30g sump.. Assuming its 36", we only used three baffles.
We cutted three pcs of glass 9" high.
Whats going to determine the height of the water level is your second to last baffle...
Here is a drawing of what we did.. It works great!![/img]
We cutted three pcs of glass 9" high.
Whats going to determine the height of the water level is your second to last baffle...
Here is a drawing of what we did.. It works great!![/img]
ansphire's design is exactly what i did with my sump also.
a couple suggestions:
don't worry about what height the water needs to be for the skimmer to work. you can raise up the skimmer simply by putting bricks or a platform under it if need be. design the sump with power outtages in mind. how much area is left in the sump when it is full? there should be enough area to hold the water that will drain into it in the event of a power outtage.
if you can fit a 30 breeder under your tank, you are much better off than choosing a standard 30
standard 30 dimensions: 36 1/4 x 12 5/8 x 16 3/4
30 breeder: 36 3/16 x 18 1/4 x 12 15/16
*much more surface area/space to put things.
basically, the 1st and second baffles, put a level across and make sure they are fairly even. the third baffle, i just slid a piece of pvc under to prop it up until it dried. you can look at my build thread for pics.
the DSB and rock rubble in ansphire's diagram are optional. i have some rubble in mine, and a little sand for critters to roam in/through, but it's only 1" or so.
you don't need any sand or rock if you don't want it.
i used a mag7 return on my 75 gallon tank with a 40 gallon sump, and i think it was a good size. i also think that would work for you as well. after head loss, it will be a nice slow flow. you won't need to choke it at all.
as far as skimmers, get a good name brand skimmer rated for twice your actual water volume and you can't go wrong :wink:
a couple suggestions:
don't worry about what height the water needs to be for the skimmer to work. you can raise up the skimmer simply by putting bricks or a platform under it if need be. design the sump with power outtages in mind. how much area is left in the sump when it is full? there should be enough area to hold the water that will drain into it in the event of a power outtage.
if you can fit a 30 breeder under your tank, you are much better off than choosing a standard 30
standard 30 dimensions: 36 1/4 x 12 5/8 x 16 3/4
30 breeder: 36 3/16 x 18 1/4 x 12 15/16
*much more surface area/space to put things.
basically, the 1st and second baffles, put a level across and make sure they are fairly even. the third baffle, i just slid a piece of pvc under to prop it up until it dried. you can look at my build thread for pics.
the DSB and rock rubble in ansphire's diagram are optional. i have some rubble in mine, and a little sand for critters to roam in/through, but it's only 1" or so.
you don't need any sand or rock if you don't want it.
i used a mag7 return on my 75 gallon tank with a 40 gallon sump, and i think it was a good size. i also think that would work for you as well. after head loss, it will be a nice slow flow. you won't need to choke it at all.
as far as skimmers, get a good name brand skimmer rated for twice your actual water volume and you can't go wrong :wink:
2nd to last baffle determines height of water level? You mean in the drawing... the one with the label and arrow that says "baffles"?? 2nd from the last to the return area? Or the first one in the fuge where water exits the fuge?
I know about the skimmer area water level. 9" is usually a max. And you can always set it on top of something. But I'd like it to be as low as possible but I might go with 9" since most skimmers have that as a max anyway.. or maybe 8" to be safe. I thought I saw some AquaC's or some other brand that had a red valve that couldn't be below water level and this valve is near the bottom of the skimmer box. I guess it would be wise to pick a skimmer first and figure this out.
I thought about the water level and "FLOODING" issue too. My stand doors won't allow something much longer than 30" or so to fit. 36" is too big. I noticed there is a 30 G out there that is 30" but it's tall... about 18" to 20" tall. Kind of a waste of space but that's all that will fit AND it actually gives a lot of extra room for power out AND a ATO system that may go haywire and drop 5-10 gal into the sump depending on how big I make it.
I don't understand your "BREEDER" tank dimensions. BUT I assume you mean the same size tank but it's shorter and longer?? I saw 2 versions of the 30G like that... but the shorter one is too long at 36-38".
What are good brand name skimmers? I know this , like everything else, is really a model by model issue too.
I want to save space and use as few baffles as possible but I was thinking about 3 after the skimmer, and 2 after the fuge. I know that's probably the max. needed and I've seen people use 3 even 2 total. And you should have 1" between these so... I'm only using up 3" or so more than a bare minimum setup.
Also... what do you guys think about some of these sump/ruges on Ebay .. some come with skimmers?
Here's one. Skimmer does look pretty simple.[/url]
I know about the skimmer area water level. 9" is usually a max. And you can always set it on top of something. But I'd like it to be as low as possible but I might go with 9" since most skimmers have that as a max anyway.. or maybe 8" to be safe. I thought I saw some AquaC's or some other brand that had a red valve that couldn't be below water level and this valve is near the bottom of the skimmer box. I guess it would be wise to pick a skimmer first and figure this out.
I thought about the water level and "FLOODING" issue too. My stand doors won't allow something much longer than 30" or so to fit. 36" is too big. I noticed there is a 30 G out there that is 30" but it's tall... about 18" to 20" tall. Kind of a waste of space but that's all that will fit AND it actually gives a lot of extra room for power out AND a ATO system that may go haywire and drop 5-10 gal into the sump depending on how big I make it.
I don't understand your "BREEDER" tank dimensions. BUT I assume you mean the same size tank but it's shorter and longer?? I saw 2 versions of the 30G like that... but the shorter one is too long at 36-38".
What are good brand name skimmers? I know this , like everything else, is really a model by model issue too.
I want to save space and use as few baffles as possible but I was thinking about 3 after the skimmer, and 2 after the fuge. I know that's probably the max. needed and I've seen people use 3 even 2 total. And you should have 1" between these so... I'm only using up 3" or so more than a bare minimum setup.
Also... what do you guys think about some of these sump/ruges on Ebay .. some come with skimmers?
Here's one. Skimmer does look pretty simple.[/url]
those all-in-one sump/refugium/skimmer things are no good. this skimmers are junk, and you can't fit a better skimmer in it because they are so small.
ASM, euro-reef, octopus are good skimmers.
you don't need 5 baffles in the sump. 3 is fine. you need space, more than extra baffles.
the height of the water is determined actually by the tallest of the 2 baffles on either side of the refugium. if you have the second baffle(second away from the intake section) a tiny bit higher than the third baffle(the one that seperates the refugium from the return area) the water will flow over that kind of like a waterfall into the fuge. if the 2nd baffle is higher, the first baffle will be submerged.
ASM, euro-reef, octopus are good skimmers.
you don't need 5 baffles in the sump. 3 is fine. you need space, more than extra baffles.
the height of the water is determined actually by the tallest of the 2 baffles on either side of the refugium. if you have the second baffle(second away from the intake section) a tiny bit higher than the third baffle(the one that seperates the refugium from the return area) the water will flow over that kind of like a waterfall into the fuge. if the 2nd baffle is higher, the first baffle will be submerged.
scifi_3d_zoo":vnxdibum said:
try..every 3 to 4 days.
they are good for bubble control and to catch alot of gunk.
you would be suprised what you'll find in those filter socks.
why would you not want to have them, considering they actually clog with stuff regularly? you would rather leave this stuff in your tank?
Wow... never thought about searching YouTube. Such a prolific place. 
I'm using it as much as Google now.
That guys video raises even more questions. What's the diff. between installing a bulkhead on the side or just bringing it in from the top? I guess you want to also think about how the water is being brought in so you don't create a massive amount of bubbles. He uses 4 baffles.
I noticed he takes some of his baffles all the way to the top. I liked the idea of leaving a little at the top for an ATO disaster contingency. Then any water that make be added b/c of a float valve/switch failure will have somewhere to go in the sump. Just let it overflow into your sump. I thought that was a good reason to get one of the 18-20" tall tanks too. If you run the water at the max. 9" height in the first area that will give you a lot of room for any overflows.
Is there some advantage to putting a bulkhead on the side as opposed to coming in from the top?
Is there some advantage to putting the return area in the middle?
I noticed he has water entering your sump from the right into the refugium. Even with your pvc with a bunch of slits in it I think it would still stir up your fuge quite a bit? Especially if you had sand in it. If you just had rubble rock probably be ok.
Seems most skimmers don't want to be under 9" of water. So 9" or less would be a good sump area water level right? I know you can always just raise the skimmer but I'd rather have it flat... maybe be safe and use like 6".
Why use acrylic baffles instead of just glass? I guess is stronger, acrylic is good too at a certain thickness. Glass can be sharper too.
I don't know if he uses socks. Not just socks... but what a block filter between some baffles... or bio-balls in there somewhere too. I guess water has to drip over bio-balls for them to work tho? I hear that they can be nitrate factories over time and aren't actually needed if you have a fuge.
I'm using it as much as Google now.That guys video raises even more questions. What's the diff. between installing a bulkhead on the side or just bringing it in from the top? I guess you want to also think about how the water is being brought in so you don't create a massive amount of bubbles. He uses 4 baffles.
I noticed he takes some of his baffles all the way to the top. I liked the idea of leaving a little at the top for an ATO disaster contingency. Then any water that make be added b/c of a float valve/switch failure will have somewhere to go in the sump. Just let it overflow into your sump. I thought that was a good reason to get one of the 18-20" tall tanks too. If you run the water at the max. 9" height in the first area that will give you a lot of room for any overflows.
Is there some advantage to putting a bulkhead on the side as opposed to coming in from the top?
Is there some advantage to putting the return area in the middle?
I noticed he has water entering your sump from the right into the refugium. Even with your pvc with a bunch of slits in it I think it would still stir up your fuge quite a bit? Especially if you had sand in it. If you just had rubble rock probably be ok.
Seems most skimmers don't want to be under 9" of water. So 9" or less would be a good sump area water level right? I know you can always just raise the skimmer but I'd rather have it flat... maybe be safe and use like 6".
Why use acrylic baffles instead of just glass? I guess is stronger, acrylic is good too at a certain thickness. Glass can be sharper too.
I don't know if he uses socks. Not just socks... but what a block filter between some baffles... or bio-balls in there somewhere too. I guess water has to drip over bio-balls for them to work tho? I hear that they can be nitrate factories over time and aren't actually needed if you have a fuge.
i think the advantage of putting a bulkhead into the side of the sump is-less stuff hanging over the side. i can't think of any other reason to do extra work for a drain that's coming directly from above.
i don't understand the vented pvc inside either.
i also don't understand the baffle all the way to the top. how old is this video? he looks like a hippie...maybe it's from 10 years ago when people used bio balls in their sumps more often?
the height of the water in my sump is 15 inches. i have adjusted the skimmer accordingly. i like the idea of adding alot of water volume to my display. i think it's a waste to only utilize half a tank.
acrylic/glass is nothing more than personal preference. i tried to get glass cut and found it was pretty expensive, and the acrylic at lowes and home depot was also, plus it wasn't as thick as i wanted it, so i used cutting boards from walmart. view my thread if you want to see it.
if you put one of your baffles all the way to the top, or just an inch avove the others, it's going to do the same thing. in the event of a power outtage, water wil fill the tank until it stops coming. it will just flow under the baffle.
i think you are way over-thinking this. this is not rocket science. the horror stories you've read are the very few people that made mistakes. there are thousands and thousands that built sumps and you never hear about it.
it's like plane crashes- you never hear on the news "top story tonight....432,784 planes landed safely today!" you only hear about the 1 that crashed. :wink:
i don't understand the vented pvc inside either.
i also don't understand the baffle all the way to the top. how old is this video? he looks like a hippie...maybe it's from 10 years ago when people used bio balls in their sumps more often?
the height of the water in my sump is 15 inches. i have adjusted the skimmer accordingly. i like the idea of adding alot of water volume to my display. i think it's a waste to only utilize half a tank.
acrylic/glass is nothing more than personal preference. i tried to get glass cut and found it was pretty expensive, and the acrylic at lowes and home depot was also, plus it wasn't as thick as i wanted it, so i used cutting boards from walmart. view my thread if you want to see it.
if you put one of your baffles all the way to the top, or just an inch avove the others, it's going to do the same thing. in the event of a power outtage, water wil fill the tank until it stops coming. it will just flow under the baffle.
i think you are way over-thinking this. this is not rocket science. the horror stories you've read are the very few people that made mistakes. there are thousands and thousands that built sumps and you never hear about it.
it's like plane crashes- you never hear on the news "top story tonight....432,784 planes landed safely today!" you only hear about the 1 that crashed. :wink:
You mean the advantage to putting it straight in is less stuff on the side? That was one thing I thought. It'll take your sump width out 6" probably. And maybe head-loss with the 90' degree joint there if that matters since there's no pump on that end.. it's just gravity feeding it.
I think the pvc slits are to break up the flow of water to decrease bubbles, maybe even current b/c he has it dropping right into his fuge I think.
It's pretty recent. I think what he's doing will work but it's not entirely worked out. I'm not sure about his experience... or even if his main display behind him is that good.
Oh yea. I saw the cutting boards you used. How much was it to get glass cut? That guy said his materials were $100.. including glue and silicone. So I figured getting 3-5 baffles shouldn't be more than $50.
Yea I'm sure if I just did it.. even like this guy is doing it... it'll work. But I'm just doing what I usually do. I like to do it the first time right and be done with it.
I was thinking about another thing. I just got a drilled tank. I'm wondering how to swap sumps out. There's no shut-off, or ball-valves. If I take both water hoses off both ends of the sump won't the tank just pour out. OR... I guess... the water will just drain until the overflow box inside the tank won't dump any more water... OH I think I get it now.
I think the pvc slits are to break up the flow of water to decrease bubbles, maybe even current b/c he has it dropping right into his fuge I think.
It's pretty recent. I think what he's doing will work but it's not entirely worked out. I'm not sure about his experience... or even if his main display behind him is that good.
Oh yea. I saw the cutting boards you used. How much was it to get glass cut? That guy said his materials were $100.. including glue and silicone. So I figured getting 3-5 baffles shouldn't be more than $50.
Yea I'm sure if I just did it.. even like this guy is doing it... it'll work. But I'm just doing what I usually do. I like to do it the first time right and be done with it.
I was thinking about another thing. I just got a drilled tank. I'm wondering how to swap sumps out. There's no shut-off, or ball-valves. If I take both water hoses off both ends of the sump won't the tank just pour out. OR... I guess... the water will just drain until the overflow box inside the tank won't dump any more water... OH I think I get it now.
Another thing I was thinking about the side bulk-head is maybe it's easier to secure it that way. Otherwise you have to mount a good piece of glass or acrylic on top that will hold the hose still... and hook a sock to if you want etc.
See.. this is exactly the sorta thing I don't want to happen and why I ask a lot of questions before I buy anything. What IF... I decided I did the bulkhead wrong... I'd have to clean the entire thing out if I setup a fuge, empty all the water out, etc. and then redo it. That would be bad.
See.. this is exactly the sorta thing I don't want to happen and why I ask a lot of questions before I buy anything. What IF... I decided I did the bulkhead wrong... I'd have to clean the entire thing out if I setup a fuge, empty all the water out, etc. and then redo it. That would be bad.
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