How the hell does one build a Sump/Refugium?

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Yea... I know what you are saying. I guess there's 2 diff. philosophy's here. One is to use as few as you can (for obvious reasons like save time and sump space) and the other is to remove as many bubbles as possible. Maybe some other technical advantages I'm not aware of too.

But I see what you are saying. 3 is the minimum. Some bubbles won't hurt the fuge. And they won't go past there with the 2 baffles at the end of the fuge. And there's two sources of bubbles here.. from the skimmer and the water coming in from the tank. There are ways to cut those two sources of bubbles down too.

Personally... I don't see the point of this baffle system either. Just having the first one up 1" isn't gonna come close to eliminating bubbles getting through. There's so much from the two sources that will be down at the bottom of the sump and go right past. I think you should either do this setup with 3 BAFFLES or go to 5 and add one more before baffle 1. Go all the way or go minimalist. Only other thing I've seen is people adding a 6th baffle at the end.. basically repeating the first 3. That's overkill.

MAN... now you're getting technical on me. I wanted to keep it simple. People were starting to tell me I was making too much of it. And I was in a way.. but I'm just a thorough kinda person. HERE's what I have.. a 90gal with probably a 10-15 gal sump. When the power goes out it doesn't overflow where I have the water set now. I wanted to get a 18-20" high 30GAL tank for a sump and have no more then 9" water level. I don't think I should have any problems... even with ATO failure.

I just discovered the drilling returns idea. No I didn't do that. Neither did the supposed expert in town tell me that either. I can't find much help around here. I think maybe a 1/2 to a 1/3 of the return area fills up when the power goes out. Can't be more than 3-5 gallons max.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Also... anybody know what happened to Reefkeeping.com? Their forums have disappeared.

 

[Mthompson]

The first baffle in my design also helps to keep the surfactants (stuff that can be skimmed) in that area nearest the skimmer pump....this gives them just a bit more chance of getting removed. And it removes well over 95% of the bubbles as well.

Another thing to remember......the lower your water level in the sump, the more often you are gonna have to refill the evaporated water. My system has 12" water in the sump and it evaporates about 7" of that in one day (24hr). Now, the evaporation only shows up in the last chamber (with the return pump), so if you make this chamber super skinny (maybe 5"W x 9"H x 12"D) that means you only have a little over two gallons of leeway. Increase the chamber width to 7" and you get another gallon, and increase the height to 12" and you get over 4 gallons in the last chamber.....just something to think about.

And You should look into setting up a simple drip system for replenishing evaporated water with RO/DI or limewater (if needed). I made mine for under $5 including the two 2.5gal water jugs and all the tubing. All I have to do now is put a new jug on every morning or evening (24-36hr interval). A lot easier than pouring it in every couple hours!

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

A low sump water isn't good I know. I planned to setup a ATO 5-10 gal container too. I"m not gonna have much choice in the tank.. only a 30" long one will fit. It's sorta tall... 18-20".. and 12" wide. So I need to figure out exactly what height I want the skimmer area and return to be. And then how to achieve that.

I could find a skimmer first and taylor fit the water level to it. Or I could just go with a generic # and raise the skimmer if I have to. Either way I have to come up with a # for that.

In your drawing I noticed you have #3 lower than #2 and it's #3 that sets the level for the return area. Hmm... that's probably why so many setups I've seen had a low fuge... the bigger the fuge the better but you can't fill up your entire return area so there's no room for overflow. I guess that's the MAIN thing about your graphs and calculations. I see now it's to find the height of #3 in one calculation. You have my #'s in there for a baffle #3 of 11.6" inches. Hmm... I was thinking of just going with 1/2 way up (9-10") just b/c I see my current sump does that... 1/2 full and fills up the rest of the way safely with power off. I might go a little lower to be on the safe side b/c I'm not 100% sure how it will all work actually.

That's what I don't want to do. PUt this together and figure out the water level is too high. There's no way to set the sump water level right?? It's all dependent on the baffle heights??

I think even a 24-36 hour changing jugs is too much for me. I only evaporate 5 gal a week on a 90gal I think??? I guess I'm missing an important concept here b/c I've never really seen it happen b/c I can't see in my sump. BUT... as the return area goes down... doesn't water go down in the fuge and skimmer area too?? Really low?? I've ran it dry and low many times to the detriment of my pump and never noticed the water low anywhere else. I guess... the baffle #2 sets the water level in the skimmer area... so when it goes below that the water stops flowing out of the skimmer area?? OR is it #3 that controls both areas b/c #3 is lower than #2 so it would stop flowing downhill once the water level got lower than #3?? AND if #2 and #3 where the same height then that wouldn't matter.. it would just stop when it got below that height?

I guess I'm still missing one basic concept of how the water flows through here... and what happens as it goes low. OH I do plan to have a ATO system but something that is 5-10 gal which I estimate will last me 1-2 weeks. You didn't actually say how you do yours but I want to get a dual-float switch system with a slow pump. I've had enough water spills and problems that I"m taking all precautions or my wife will make me get rid of the whole thing. I plan on leaving enough room in the sump to handle the 5-10 gal. , IF I CAN, from ATO just in case of a catastrophic failure. Two switches,, and a slow pump so just in case something goes wrong it will very slowly be adding water to the sump from ATO.

 

[Mthompson]

I used the calculations to find what the maximum height of the water could be in the sump, then I made it 1 inch lower just to be safe.

The flow going through the sump/fuge set-up is not very easy to picture or logically describe. It is easiest to see in action, then its a kinda 'well-duh' moment. The water level for the skimmer area is set by the first baffle that connects to the bottom (#2 in mine - #1 is off the bottom). The fuge level is set by the second baffle to touch the bottom (#3 in mine). If the first baffle on the bottom is lower than the second, then the water level is going to be at the higher of the two. This means, in my set-up, the skimmer compartment is about 1 inch deeper than my fuge compartment. I made close to the height my skimmer needs, and then I can fine tune the skimmer more easily....but if the whole thing was that level, I would not have enough room for overflow if the power went out. This configuration also helps keep most organisms from getting up by the skimmer from the fuge, and if some get in through the overflows, they tend to get to the fuge easier (I also cut teath in the top of both for a grate).

The flow going through the first two compartment will stay at their designated level as long as water is being put in. If you dump water in the first compartment, it will fill up to the baffle level and then overflow into the second compartment. The second compartment will fill up until it flows over its baffle into the third compartment. If you stop right then and look at it, you will have the first two compartments full and the third will have just a small amount of water....if you dump a gallon of water in the first compartment, one gallon will flow out into compartment two and subsequently one gallon will flow into the third compartment.

So, if you place a pump in the third compartment and have it pump water into the first compartment, water will flow through all three compartments at the velocity of the water being pumped out of the third compartment (into the first). If you take 1 gallon of water out of compartment one as the system is up and running, water will stop flowing into compartment two until the water from the third has filled up the first to the baffle height...at which point flow into the second is restored. Thus leaving the lost 1gallon of water in the third compartment.

Does that help explain the flow and water levels and things? This is extremely hard to visualize if you have never actually seen it happen...I know, I went the through the same process before I built mine. It just doesn't seem like it will work, until you just make it and turn it on.

As for the ATO, I don't have one. The logistics in my current house are just to much to deal with. Therefore, it is easier just to fill a drip system every other day....you can look at my tank build for that info.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

I just noticed... baffle #2 isn't touching the bottom. :roll: I'm sure that's a typo/mistake.

Ok... so area 3 (return)... just drains until it's empty and isn't affected by the water level in the other areas? Hmm... I don't even understand what I just said. You're right... this doesn't make a lot of sense with words.

Maybe you can just tell me what I should do? You're saying calcs show 11.6 is the MAX height of baffle 3.. to not overflow. THe goal is to have your skimmer at a height that will work with your skimmer.... have the fuge as big as possible.... and have a return area that will hold as much as possible (but with ATO that's not a must)... while leaving enough room so my sump can't overflow. That's the hard part. Making that all happen.

#2 and #3 can be the same height?? I usually see them this way. Why do you have yours 1" shorter.. or is that a typo?

I was thinking of just getting a TurboFlotor. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+8185&pcatid=8185 They're actually cheap and a good old-fashion workhorse. I read about how they have very low maintenance and work well. I was looking at newer ones, and skimmers that use new technologies ... but they cost more and I read about how they require more cleaning, aren't proven methods yet, etc. So I was thinking about getting that one. Let other people be beta-testers for the new expensive crap.

SO I'm not sure the water level it recommends. I'm reading the pdf on it and they keep saying to keep the pump as close to the water surface as possible "The pump should be placed close to the surface otherwise more air and less water will be sucked in because of the increasing water pressure". I don't understand that. It can't be in the bottom of the skimmer area if it's like 8" deep? You have to prop it up too. Being closer to the surface I would think increase odds of sucking in air.

NEVER MIND. Back to the drawing board. I misread Turboflotor's I guess. They were talking about being "in sump" but they're not. The pump is in the sump.. or it's a hang-on. I don't want a skimmer outside my sump in my living room... so something can happen and water and/or skimmate is running all over my floors. Skimmer being outside my sump would waste stand space too.

People told me a few brands.. Euro-Reef is expensive... but is Coral Life any good or are they a cheapy brand? http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+13924&pcatid=13924

 

[mr_X]

what size display and what size sump was this again?

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

What the excel diagram was for basically. 30x (18-20) x12... 90 gal.

 

[mr_X]

i think you should go with something larger than an aqua medic turbofloater. you can sit them in sump if you want, but i think you need something with a bit more punch. if you are looking to save money, try an ASM skimmer.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

I was looking at the Euro-Reefs... like the RS-80.. says it's for 80 gal.. but "comparitive" and some other #'s they use are 200 gal. So they're trying to say theirs is so good it can do up to 200 gal?? I looked on some other sites and they don't even say it's for 80 gal but just say 200.

 

[mr_X]

don't put alot of trust in those numbers. they are exaggerated a bit. i have a 300 gallon system and use a skimmer that's rated for 450 gallons. i think it barely handles it. i do feed heavily though....

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

ooppps......

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Does anybody know anything about ORCA skimmers? This place has a pretty good price for everything... IF I wanted to go that route. I think they'll customize and put any skimmer I want in there too. They have a lot of Octopuss skimmers, and some others.

http://www.acrylicarts.eversites.co...6&catid=946&shopperid=24859&shop=itemlist.asp

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Well... I got an AquaC EV 240... with a larger MAG 18 pump. I'll be skimming my butt off now. I figured.. it has room to grow just in case I go bigger some day.

Now I am back to square one and making a sump again. This thing has a 8 1/2" gate valve that water can't be any higher than. They say now most sumps won't require the skimmer to be raised now. ?? I thought the average was 9". The tank I'm looking at is 30(L)x12(W)x18(H). Pretty high. I figured that would give me extra space for overflow. In fact, tonight I just had a power-outage for an hour and I overflowed a 1/2 gallon. Not even sure why it did it b/c the water in the return wasn't that high.

I want to make sure I have not only enough room for overflow (I'll probably do the mod. where you drill a little hole in your return at the top of the water in your tank) but ALSO to cover a 10 gal ATO. SO what I"m doing is debating on the height of baffles. If I go with 9" standard that'll give me another 9" or so to the top... or only 1/2 of the 30 Gal used.. or about 15 gal for ATO problems & overflow. OR should I go with lower to match the max. 8.5" height of the skimmer... like 7"?? Bad thing about that is I would lose a little refugium space. In fact.. only using 1/2 the 30 gal tank I'm just using 15 gal then... not really good use of space.

I'll have to write on paper and see how my skimmer, 5 baffles, and pumps would fit in this.. thus showing me how much room I"ll have. My return area is so small now... I couldn't add a in-sump Phos reactor if I wanted. Have to take into consideration the future too.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Now I'm starting to understand why people say... "sump space is tight and a precious comodity". I'm having a tough time getting it all to fit in there. Even with 30"... a skimmer/pump, fuge, return area... it's tight.

Main problem I'm having now before even figuring all of that out is getting the plumbing together. It's hard to find some of this stuff. The MAG 18 has 3/4" female threaded "out" and the AquaC has a 1" barb "in". So I'm trying to find an adapter for that.. no luck so far. Might have to go to the internet.. I'm tired of looking locally.

I was wondering... metal clamps are ok.. but will rust and not preferrable?? I had no luck at Lowe's so far for plastic clamps. What about "BRASS" connectors/adaptors? Won't rust but will it leach any other harmful stuff?

 

[mr_X]

that is a good skimmer.
i don't know about the brass. it can't be good or people would be using them.
i'd look for plastic clamps. i have a stainless one on my mag24 return. it's all rotted and rusted now- just a few months old.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

Well... I found some stuff. I had to double-up my # of adapters to get it done. I'm not sure if I need clamps? Those barbs and hoses seem so tight. I guess I could use zip-ties possibly.. or order plastic clamps online. Guy at AquaC is telling me there's a 50/50 chance I won't need another gate valve with using the bigger MAG 18 on the skimmer.

My main problem now is fitting stuff into this sump. I made some simple paper pieces to represent the sump & stand to see how things will fit. I can't get anything bigger than a 30" W tank into my stand. I made paper pieces for my skimmer/pump too. It helps plan things out for me.

I tried to make something better than this in PSP but it was too much trouble. Basically... the scale of my markings are 1/4" = 1". I dotted a line inside the tank to represent the loss to glass thickness.

My skimmer is the first big box on the right. The 2nd is the skimmer pump. It says "optional" on the pump b/c I cut it's width in 1/2 by turning it on it's side... I don't think this will hurt the pump at all? It also eliminates making angles on the tubing going from it. I saved another inch or two by rotating them this way. I had both rotated 90' to the right b/c I thought it would be easier to gain access to the skimmer if it faced me but it won't matter.

Another thing I can do to save space is cut the baffles down from my plan of 5 to only 4. I have even seen before people with just two.. then one more after the fuge. But what's one more inch or so.

Have to think about where the water comes into the skimmer area.. and where the skimmer drain goes. Doesn't make sense to keep skimming your skimmed water over and over. Not much I can do about this b/c of space. Both pieces are side-by-side here. The drain is right over the pump and I planned to have water coming into the area right over where the pump filter intake is. I think pictures help.

It's all tight. DAMN tight. And after I add the space needed for baffles 1/2 or more of my entire 30" sump is gone.

In the 2nd pic. is how they look right next to each other. I thought I could help the skimmer a little by having the water come in right over the pump filter.. and the skimmer drain over the pump away from it's inlet. BUT I was wondering how hard is the water going to come out of the drain?? How much space should I give between the 1st baffle and this drain? If it's not gonna work I could rotate them both 90' degrees to the right so they face out. That will only give 1" more and no option to make it diff. moving the 1st baffle out more.

My whole purpose here was to add a fuge. I"m looking at not being able to have a fuge 10% the size of my tank. So I was trying to save an inch anywhere I could. These tank stands aren't designed for all this gear. Also note.. I have the pump on it's side to save 3". You can see the white output valve pointing straight up. This not only saves space but keeps me from having to have a 90' angle on the tubing going to the skimmer. Do you know if it's ok to put a pump on the side like this? This whole thing is turning out to be quite complex for me. Mostly b/c I have a 48" stand.

About the fuge I was thinking... it's a 18" tall sump... 30 gal.. I was gonna fill it up about 8" or so. If I did this I would only be using 15 gal then. And for a 10% fuge on my 90gal I'd need 9gal. That means I'd have to have a huge part of the sump devoted to the fuge then. There's no way I can get 10%. I could add more water by raising the water level and raising the skimmer. HOWEVER.. I was looking at things and something I never thought about.. HOW am I gonna get the skimmer in the sump and then it all in the stand? I think I can do it. I'll put the tank in first.. maybe I can move it around in then and angle it down so I can slide the skimmer in. I can also take the collection cup off to help. This should be ok but it's just one potential disaster after another.

AND I wouldn't know if anything went wrong until I actually took my system apart and replaced the sump. Could be a disaster. I can't just shut it all down for days while I figure this out.

One LAST potential issue, for now :roll: , is the return area. WHat is a min. size for that. Right now I have 5" and there's an extra inch width. But I was thinking if I wanted to put a phos reactor in there how big is that. I might need it if the fuge ends up being really small. Luckily I think these things are pretty small too. But add the pump, reactor, some ATO sensors.. and it's looking extremely tight too. AND one of my big goals was to make the return area nice and big with ATO. Not looking too good now.

 

[mr_X]

a phosban reactor is a small, pump fed, cannister type thing with just a couple hoses that go into the sump. i wouldn't worry about it taking up space.

skimming the skimmed water over is not a bad thing, as long as you are skimming all the water at some point(there is a formula to follow for this as far as how many times the entire tank gets skimmed, but someone else will have to chime in on that). i'm the opposite of you- i think the water has to run through my sump a couple times to be fully skimmed, due to my mag 24 return pump.

could you possibly drill the 30 gallon tank and attach a remote refugium?
what about a hang on the back refugium? then you would only need to split the 30 gallon in 2. i would seriously consider either a remote(my choice) or a hang on the back refugium.

the minimum size for the return area is personal preference, as long as you have an ATO. - don't forget you need to have enough room for your return pump.

 

[scifi_3d_zoo]

I guess Phosban could go anywhere... but I always thought about it going in the return area. Plus.. the skimmer area is kinda crowded right now. Plus.. a pump has to go in return anyway.. and the rest of the space is wasted.. so that's a good spot for it.

I'm waiting to see what the AquaC guys say about how much clearance I see for the drain. I don't want it splashing up against the tank.

I don't have space for any other tanks... nor do I want to put something in another room and run pipes/tubes with water in them to and from. I'm not taking any chances with water leaks.. or should I say potential floods and tank deaths. I was wondering... if you had a separate tank next to the other one and drilled bulkheads below the water line water would drain through gravity. THen you wouldn't have to rely on pumps.. .but be careful moving anything or you could break your seals. Some options but they don't seem like solutions though.

I thought about hang-ons too. That's what I researched first. I didn't like them for a few reasons. I'm basically going back to a overflow box setup even though I have a drilled tank. Noise, possible overflows, etc. Again it's an option but I don't think it outweighs the one drawback ... a little bit smaller fuge than I want in the sump. I could supplement it with a phosbas reactor if it's really small... to help with that one aspect of it.

I guess... if I have an ATO that will help me make the return area as small as possible then. Just need to put a phosban reactor there. I know they can do Phosban hang-on's too but again... water going in and out of my sump I don't like.

 

[Len]

Between Marine Depot and Home Depot, you should be able to find most of the fittings you need, including those barb adapters. Sometimes you need two adapters to get it to work.

My phosphate media is placed directly below my overflow outlet. Water cascades over it. It's not as good as a pressurized reactor, but it's working well. I use my media reactor for carbon.