Reef newbie

[ThomasPowers]

OK...this may be a dream or a nightmare.

I have 20+ years experience with FOWLR marine setups. So I'm good with cycling, live rock, waiting months to get water right, etc.

My question is equipment and reef keeping.

I have had up to 55gals in the past...but the new area will take 72"x30"deepx26" high so we are in the 150+ gallon range now... anything bigger will not fit through the door to get it in the house. I am now out of my comfort zone.

It is going in it's own enclosed room, with it's own power, 7' ceiling, and a floor drain.

Question 1 - Glass or acryllic? I know the pros and cons of each...but when you get that big...I question which is better since most real big tanks are acryllic.
Question 2 - Since I'm ordering the tank...I assume we will want to sump this. So that begs the question of getting a drilled tank or using a siphon overflow. Ideas? Anyone have any good resources on where to order such a tank?
Question 3 - What to use for a sump/wet dry system. I have read a lot on people building their own...and I'm not comfortable with this not having done reef and sump setups before. All my filtration experience is HOT and canister filters..so this is foreign. I'm looking for a sump/wet/dry system that will pair nicely with the tank and the overflow from question 2
Question 3 - metal halide lights seem to be the way to go...but how high above the tank should they be and how big does one go? Any cooling ideas?
Question 4 - There appears to be wave generators that stick on with magnetics...so placement can be precise and there's no extra drilling. These look good...any ideas on placements?
Question 5 - what else will I need? Chillers, reverse osmosis, V sterilizers...etc Some of it may or may not be goo for reef.

Take this note when answering these questions. Cost does not matter as much as getting this right. I would rather pay 300 bucks for something that works right rather than trying to build something for 50 bucks and screwing it up.

I know this will be a pricy endeavor... so I am not concerned about being cheap...I am concerned about quality and doing this correctly.

All help is appreciated Reef Gurus!!

Tom P

 

[Len]

:welcome:

1. Go glass. Almost everyone nowadays with large tanks goes glass for a lot of reasons. When you get really huge (like 1000+ gallons), acrylic might become a more attractive option. Anything in the 100-500 range is mostly glass now. Acrylic just has too many drawbacks. Oh, I would recommend going 72Lx30Wx26H (not sure if you meant "26 deep" as 26 front-to-back or top-to-bottom). That's 243 gallons
2. Get a tank with a built-in overflow; hang-on overflows are not as reliable. Any major custom glass tank manufacturer now makes internal overflow boxes as well as external overflow boxes now (so you have no internal box obstructing the view). Aquarium Obsessed is where I got my custom tank. There's also LeeMar if you're on the west coast, or Glass Cages.
3. Acrylic sumps are easier to work with (since you can drill them as you please). Just get a fairly sizable sump ... no special consideration is really required when designing them. A sump is just a container to house equipment (it doesn't have to get fancy), so the bigger, the more options you have when it comes to stuff like in-sump skimmers. I would say a 40-50 gallon acrylic tank would be plenty.
4. Metal halides are definitely the ideal choice for larger and deeper tanks. Your tank size would need at least 250W halides with good reflectors (Lumenarc or Lumenmax Elite). 400W would work very well too. You'll need 3 halides for a 72" tank. Halides should have at least 12" of clearance from the water. Some people use fans to cool the canopy and tank, while others rely on chillers.
5. There are a lot of propeller-type pumps now that attach to the tank with magnets. These include Vortech, Tunze, and Koralia. All provide excellent flow. Placement depends on what you're trying to achieve, and which pumps you go with (Vortechs are not directional, while the other two are). The beauty is since they attach by magnet, you can easily move them around to create the flow pattern you want.
6. Besides what's been mentioned, you will want a good RO/DI system (75gpd min for a tank your size), a good skimmer, rock, return pump (from sump back to the tank), and a heater ... the "essentials." Chillers help and are worthwhile investments, as are controllers to monitor and automate everything. Hobbyist also like to run activated carbon (GAC) and phosphate absorbing media (GFO) in dedicated media reactors (reactors are cheap ). And installing an auto-top-off system (to top off the evaporated water) is a good investment as well.

People here are happy to give you specific recommendations on different types of equipment.

Yep, this won't be cheap But it will be extremely fun and educational. There is a reason so many people get addicted to this hobby after all

Len

 

[Saltlick]

Wow, how often do you get someone who says that the money is secondary to getting the thing set up right?
On here I have seen a few people who obviously found out what it costs, and many who knew it going in and
still shocked themselves a bit. But my only ideas to contribute are alot of amplification to Len's ideas. Only
a few items, on small tanks a sump should be half of the main tank volume, which is effective up to about
100 gallons. After that, a 50-55 gallon tank should do it all the way to your grande muchos. I am forced to
do all of my stuff myself, cause money was the object. If i could save some money, I did. Get a lot of salt
and be ready to watch nothing for 3-4 weeks. Breeding that much bacteria is going to take some time.
I have found over the years that NOTHING about reef-keeping is set in stone, but
it should be a law that you are not allowed to stress or kill any creature to cycle a tank. I promised myself
that i would cycle with a raw shrimp this time, but I just tossed in a chunk of live rock. Granted, there are
creatures in the rock, but I have not seen anything larger than a microbe so far. After two weeks, I finally saw
my first downturn in Ammonia today. So here we go, time to start making some decisions.

I agree that glass is the way to go, and drilled is best, since you really need to have a few Hang on Back overflows
before you have seen all the dirty tricks they can play and make choosing HOB a little safer. They can ruin the
worst time of your life, returning from vacation. Come home dead tired and still have to attack reef problems.
The locations for your wave generation will be dictated by your rock scaping. A bit down the road from now.
Best of luck. And for goodness sake, I hope you are settled. Big tanks are for people who don't move.

 

[ThomasPowers]

All good advice...thank you much!! And yes...though I am not independently wealthy...I do believe in quality first, cost second. I realize if this tank is in the 200 gallon range..that this will be a 10 to 15K investment by the time I am done. I'm good with that.

The Left to right dimension is 72", front to back will be 24-30 ish, and the height - top to bottom - will be 26". This is predetermined by the size of the display opening and the size of the window we'll need to bring this beast in through.

I have the Volume 3 of the Reef Aquarium, and a great DVD on parts, assembly, etc....are there any other current...good resources one can recommend?

Your suggestions have made me think a bit on how to go about this.

The book and DVD mention wet dry filtration systems with Bio balls (mostly commercial made it looks like)...but many people on forums mention that these things are nitrate beasts...especially when you get into the bigger tanks. Now...since there will be mostly coral, inverts, etc and only a few fish (all species yet to be chosen...that's next once I understand all the parts)...I'm thinking the bioload will be lighter than a fowlr tank...so would a wet dry be a good idea here? Obviously it goes in with the sump, along with the heater, skimmer, and whatever else I can come up with.

I shall investigate a drilled Glass tank and a dozen friends to help me get it downstairs!! I'm assuming I'll need 2 overflows - one on the right and one on the left to pull evenly from the tank...or would the middle be better?

From what I have seen, it is best to leave a tank this size uncovered to facilitate gas exchange?

The halides would then be suspended above the tank...which is easy....3 you say? I would think then (3) 24" ones will work. Any idea how much power that will pull? They say it needs to be 12 " from the tank...but how far down from the ceiling above? I have about 16 " of clearance till I hit a PVC drain pipe and the furnace ductwork above. If halide is too hot for this space...what are my other options? T5 - or one of the combo units...like Aqualight Pro HQI/Compact Fluorescent/Lunar Light Fixture. This says it can be a lower wattage, bt run closer to the water - 6". it looks like a pretty nice combo. and they make a 72" version.

As far as an RO/RI system...i was planning on having a small 20 gal tank with our well water in it, from there...through the RO/RI to a 55 gal holding tank, aerated, and heated. From there, I can send a clean feed to keep the tank replenished through autofill. A second 55 gallon tank will sit underneath to take a second feed of RO/RI water that is mixed with salt also aerated, heated, and in motion with powerheads. This would be used for water changes. if I do this right...All I will need to do is keep dumping water into the 20 gal and let it flow to where it all needs to be. When I do a water change, I drain out the amount for the change, turn on the pump from the holding tank of salt water and refill. When not doing water changes, the evaporation will be replenished from the RO/RI holding tank of fresh water automatically. At any given time...I should have 40 gal of fresh RO/RI, and at least 30 gal of premixed Salt water that will be well dissolved when I need it.

I was going to d the shrimp route as well to get the cycle going...but I was going to put in some live rock to get started too...not all of it mind you...but about 50 lbs to get started. In the past I have used crushed coral for the bottom...but that collects so much crap that I really am leaning toward live sand - like 5" or so. Given we are in the 180+ range...thinking about 150-200lbs of live rock. A tank this size should take at least 2-3 months to run cycle I am betting.

The first time I tried to cycle with raw shrimp...i put in WAY too much...and the living room smelled like a sushi bar for months!!

And yes...we built this house 7 years ago....and the basement is now fully finished. This is the crown jewel of that basement. I'm 40 years old and plan to die here (later..rather than sooner.) If I do move...the tank will be sold, in place, to someone who better love reef tanks!!

thanks...and I look forward to all of your ideas...as you can tell...mys sticking point right now is getting my head around the sump/filtration ideas.

Thanks

TP

 

[Len]

Books are solid reading, but the problem with them is they tend to get dated pretty quickly. Magazines and online material are actually much better for current information about reefkeeping.

Wet/Drys aren't used with reef tanks these days (mostly freshwater and fish-only saltwater aquariums). All you really need is a sump and skimmer for your filtration (in addition to the biological functions of your live rock). Adding GAC and GFO in media dedicated reactors will be worthwhile too.

Yes, glass tanks are very heavy, but worth it You have a lot of options on how to configure your overflows. Some people prefer a center overflow, while others prefer side overflows. As mentioned, manufacturers also now offer external overflow boxes. For example:

topic113571-20.html

No one covers their big tanks with glass covers. Glass covers impede gas exchange, and it also impedes light penetration into the tank.

For your tank, 3 250W or 3 400W halides is what I'd go with. That means anywhere from 750W to 1200W of power usage (but it's actually closer to 900W and 1500W of usage). I really recommend having your lights on a separate circuit than your other equipment as to not overload an outlet/circuit. 16" clearance above the halide is fine for cooling. You only need a few inches, but the more the better. T5s will run a bit cooler, but they aren't totally cool either (may appear that way because the heat is distributed over a larger area). T5s are not an ideal option IMO for a tank 26" deep.

You can feed RO/DI with well water, but you will need a pressure pump to do this (RO needs 50-100psi of pressure to work). Just to warn you: if your well water has high TDS like most well water does, you will find you have to change the RO/DI media very frequently. The topoff water reservoir doesn't really need to be heated (aerated is an option, but not necessary either). This water is added at such slow rates via auto-topoff systems that it will not change the physical or chemical perimeters of your tank. You can also consider eliminating the topoff reservoir and have your RO/DI automatically top off your evaporation by way of a water level float switch. There are draw backs to float switches (not as reliable). The water-change reservoir should be heated. Personally, I'd leave the tank empty, filling and mixing it only a few days before you plan to do a water change. There's no reason to waste energy "aging" saltwater, and leaving a tank like that running will likely promote bacterial and algae growth over time. But I guess having spare water for emergency water changes has advantages as well.

Deep sandbeds are a little out of favor, but some people still use them. A lot of people now go either bare bottom for a shallow sand bed. All three choices work and have different advantages/disadvantages.

200 lbs of rock will be fine for your size tank. It'll give you a more open layout. Massive rockwalls are out of favor too (for aesthetic and practical reasons).

You don't need very much nitrogenous material to get the nitrogen cycle going. And your tank will probably cycle in under 2 months, but it's always better to wait longer to add livestock.

This tank would be the killer centerpiece of your basement. I'm excited for you

 

[Saltlick]

Yeah, ONE shrimp can handle a 200 gallon tank, believe me. I also am against the Deep Sand Bed.
Not only cause they are going out of style, but because they are hideous looking at the glass front.
If you like the concept of a DSB, go with it in your sump, or in a compartment of your sump. One inch
to cover should be good for the main. Look into prefiltering your RO unit, too to scrub some of what
the well water will have in it. Maybe you can just plan on changing the RO unit pre-filter, but it seems
to me you might be changing it once a month if the well water has alot of iron in it. That would be
something I'd get local professional input on. I think you could cycle the whole tank without live rock
if you wanted to. Your new rock will have bacteria with it, so you'd only really be seeding the sand bed.
OR, cycle the tank with no sand at all and all your rock, for a detritus-friendly experience, THEN put your
sand in there after all the crap has dropped off the rock and your levels get right. Just babbling on cause
I want to be you. Haha, my little 40 gallon provides me with alot less joy, but hopefully is one-man moveable
when the time comes. Might go all coral and no fish on this one. Maybe some shrimp, maybe all coral
and one mean mantis shrimp. Fish are cool, but they poop alot.

 

[ThomasPowers]

We be gettin somewhere now :!:

OK...so ...dump the wet/dry...good ... never did understand them anyway.

DSB is out...go 1" in the main tank.

Sump will have skimmer, heater(s), and whatever reactors the water shows I need. More sand and live rock can go in there too I guess. What about mechanical filtration? FIlter pads/floss from the overflow into the sump? Ideas?

Ro/RI right to topoff...better idea...thanks. The premix tank...we'll shift that to mix as needed a few days before. Never thought of the alga/bacteria thing...good catch!!

1 shrimp ... CHECK!!

Lighting is the issue.

The tank will need to be 72x24x24. The issue is this. The location is fixed and the outer wall with display opening is already built. There is a duct and a PVC drain pipe above the tank...that will sit above the back 5-6" of the tank. From the top of the water...to the duct/pipe is 16"...so getting a halide in there, with 12" from water...means I have to find a 4" fixture to have ZERO clearance above...if I want to shoot the light straight down from above. Ya...don't think so.

I could try to mount the lighting above the front 18" of the tank (as it has like 3 feet above the water to play with)...then maybe hang the fixture at like a 20 degree angle to hit the back of the tank?

What about LED? Cooler, lower power, good lighting...but pricy.......I'm just worried about that darn pipe and melting it!!

Tank will be coming in around June or so...we got plumbing to do to get the RO/RI in line (with a pump). We'll need electrical run from the generator panel. And I have to build the stand yet. We're thinking 4x4 treated for the posts, with multiple 2x4 treated for bracing, 1 " Birch plywood. All marine painted, then coated with "poly". Rubbber matting for the tank and the sump to sit on.

I wonder...would it be a good idea to put this up as a running project? People would see such a tank built from scratch...with your guys input...and they could see eveyr step of the way. Maybe it would help the next poor monkey whose thinking about going through this? You guys could build a great system with someone elses money ...welcome to consulting!!

Wonder how I go about that?

Just a thought.

Thanks again

TP

 

[Oreo0313]

Hello everyone. I'm new to this hobby, so this site and everyone's posts are a goldmine. I have a problem with the placement of my sump return pump. The previous owner placed the sump return pump 2 feet behind the entire unit. This won't work, as I'm placing the system against the wall. So, I have only two options. I can elevate the pump slightly above the sump, making sure to fill the hose lines with water before starting the pump. Is this a good idea? Or I could place the pump in the sump. The only problem with the second option is that I can't find any information on whether my pump is submersible or not. It is a pan world px 100. I'd rather elevate the pump if it's possible, that way I don't have to plug the existing hole in the acrylic.