Setting Up a QT while my DT is cycling

[Marcellina]

I dont know if this is a dumb question :iamwithst

I have read so many posts ad useful articles on here about the benefits of having a QT tank and it sounds like it really is a must. I would like to get one that fits under my DT in the cabinet area. Is there a size limit for a QT tank? And can it be created while my tank is cycling? Just wondering, if yes can I get some coral to keep in there until my tank is stabilized? I am assuming it would require a filter and pump?

And the same with a refugium. How small a tank can it be and what is needed for it? - I would love to have one of these with some chaeto algae and other beneficial algaes etc

By the way if you havent guessed i'm new to Saltwater Tanks. I started cycling my 29G BioCube 6 days ago. I have 40lbs of LS and about 31lbs of LR (do I need a little more LR I dont want to overcrowd).
My Levels from today are:
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 5
High Range PH: 7.8
Ammonia: 8

Also I am located in Long Island NY and would love to know if there are and SW or Reefer Clubs around this area for future frag and fish trades etc.

 

[h2o]

No coral slow down a bit first get your DT set up and cycled . what kind of equipment are u using?, skimmer, lights,etc . how big is your sump and how much room you got in it usually a section of your sump is your refugium , some pics of your set up would help .

 

[seascape]

slow down DT first you're not ready for that yet,you will regret rushing you will end up spending more money rushing and killing corals that dont need to be.

 

[masterswimmer]

Greetings Marcella and welcome to Manhattan Reefs. You ask some good questions and hopefully you'll continue asking them. No, none of your questions are dumb.

A QT is absolutely not a necessity, however it is a great addition to your collection of tanks. When your display tank is up and running, maturing and you have a boatload of fish and coral in there that total in the $thousand$ of dollars, the thought of adding one fish, coral, or even a piece of live rock directly to your display and inadvertantly introducing a parasite, disease or deadly hitchhiker that can potentially wipe out your tank, suddenly the QT seems like a very inexpensive, nonintrusive tank that should have been set up since day one.

There is no minimum size that a QT should be. Obviously the bigger the better, but a small 5 or 10g QT surely is better than none. It is important to know that there should be no live rock in there. Many times LR is a medium for parasites and unwanted hitchhikers to hide or propagate in. In the same vane there should also be no sandbed, it should be a barebottom tank with a couple of pieces of pvc in the tank for your critters to hide inside and have a sense of security.

Can the QT be set up while your tank is cycling you ask. It'll be tough to do that. Many times people set up a QT the day they bring home a new addition for their system. All you really need to do is a water change in your display. Use the water you're taking out of your display for the QT water. You can run a HOT (Hang On Tank) filter to provide circulation and a means to add a bacterial colony to the QT. All you need to do is leave a new filter pad for the QT filter inside your sump or fuge of your display tank. This filter pad will quickly become colonized with beneficial bacteria from your display tank. When it's time to set up the QT, just take the filter pad out of the sump/fuge and put it in your HOT filter with water change water from your display and you instantly have a cycled tank with a bacteria colony ready to handle your new addition. Add a heater, the pvc mentioned above, and a small light and you're ready to go. I would not add any coral to your QT to keep 'in waiting' for your display. Natures reefs took millions of years to form, don't rush your tank. 4-6 weeks really isn't that long.

A refugium is an entirely different setup than a sump and/or a QT. Running any size fuge is better than none at all. It is added water volume (a plus) to your system, it will house additional LR rubble for pods to propagate in, and as you already know, it's a great place to grow chaetomorpha to help export nutrients. The term 'refugium' is defined as a 'safe haven to take refuge in'. Therefore it is important to remember not to put any predatory critters inside your fuge. A predatory critter can be as inoccuous as a hermit crab. If the hermit crab were to eat pods for instance, then it is considered predatory towards the pods.....something you're trying to get to reproduce in your fuge. When adding anything to your fuge, give it some thought and try to think one step ahead of that animal. What will it eat? If it is something you're trying to protect, propagate, or have reproduce, then don't add it.

Again, as I'm sure you're aware, your ammonia and nitrite levels indicate your cycle is not nearly complete. Patience is the name of the game right now. One of the things you can do is get yourself a nice red LED flashlight and check out your tank when the lights in the tank are out and the lights in the room your tank is in are out for a couple of hours. Look VERY closely at the smallest (pinpoint size) particles in your tank, on your sandbed, on your glass, on your rock and see if they move. You'll be amazed at the life that is starting in your tank at this very early stage. Watch these little tiny animals grow and reproduce as the weeks pass. These beginning stages will offer you an appreciation for your system that will bring your awareness down to the microscopic level.

Again, welcome to MR and have a great time here.
Russ

 

[tomtoothdoc]

Greetings Marcella and welcome to Manhattan Reefs. You ask some good questions and hopefully you'll continue asking them. No, none of your questions are dumb......

Again, welcome to MR and have a great time here.
Russ

great post. excellent reply. constructive, informative and non-judgmental. new members and not-so-experienced reefers would appreciate these types of answers more than negative or condescending comments. thanks.

 

[masterswimmer]

great post. excellent reply. constructive, informative and non-judgmental. new members and not-so-experienced reefers would appreciate these types of answers more than negative or condescending comments. thanks.

Awww shucks Tom Thanks

Russ

 

[tomtoothdoc]

Awww shucks Tom Thanks

Russ

now that i brown-nosed your butt.....can i get free shipping?....lol..lol.:splitspin
hidden agenda......:shhh:

 

[masterswimmer]

now that i brown-nosed your butt.....can i get free shipping?....lol..lol.:splitspin
hidden agenda......:shhh:

:smash:

Place your order and we'll see if it meets our minimum :splitspin

:shhh::shhh::shhh:

R

 

[Marcellina]

Hi Russ

THank you for a great in depth response. I wrote the question and thought that the replies would come to my email inbox. Im new to this site !! oops! LOL

And here I thought no one wanted to answer me.

I wish I found these answers sooner. I did start my QT already thinking it was a good thing. Its been up a week and a half now. Its set up with no live rock, no sand bed and just a pvc for hiding purposes.

I have 2 ocellaris that I bought to QT, I wanted to QT them for 4 weeks. I also have some coral frags, mostly zoas and a frogspawn. SInce it wasnt cycled the ammonia keeps going up and I keep doing a water change almost every day to bring it down. I am scared now that the nitrite is going to go up. The Ammonia after a 1/3 water change is still high at .25, Nitrite is .25, Nitrate 2.5 ph is 8.4. I used PRIME by SeaChem to bind the ammonia and nitrite and nitrate in the QT.

My DT isnt finished cycling, Nitrite is .25, AMmonia 0 Nitrate 0 PH 8.5 SG 1.25

My question is should I move everything into the DT bc the QT tank levels are going up? Will I end up losing everything? It was never my intention to put everything into the DT so soon. I had good intentions of having a QT but I should have just waited until my DT was ready and then use the beneficial bacteria and the water from the DT to start the QT.

What is the best thing for me to do right now? The fish are swimming fine , the forgspawn isnt puffed out huge but its opened and the zoas are not really opened either but that prob bc of the ammonia level.

SInce I havent had ammonia in the the DT for well over 2 weeks should I move everything there? Help!

Greetings Marcella and welcome to Manhattan Reefs. You ask some good questions and hopefully you'll continue asking them. No, none of your questions are dumb.

A QT is absolutely not a necessity, however it is a great addition to your collection of tanks. When your display tank is up and running, maturing and you have a boatload of fish and coral in there that total in the $thousand$ of dollars, the thought of adding one fish, coral, or even a piece of live rock directly to your display and inadvertantly introducing a parasite, disease or deadly hitchhiker that can potentially wipe out your tank, suddenly the QT seems like a very inexpensive, nonintrusive tank that should have been set up since day one.

There is no minimum size that a QT should be. Obviously the bigger the better, but a small 5 or 10g QT surely is better than none. It is important to know that there should be no live rock in there. Many times LR is a medium for parasites and unwanted hitchhikers to hide or propagate in. In the same vane there should also be no sandbed, it should be a barebottom tank with a couple of pieces of pvc in the tank for your critters to hide inside and have a sense of security.

Can the QT be set up while your tank is cycling you ask. It'll be tough to do that. Many times people set up a QT the day they bring home a new addition for their system. All you really need to do is a water change in your display. Use the water you're taking out of your display for the QT water. You can run a HOT (Hang On Tank) filter to provide circulation and a means to add a bacterial colony to the QT. All you need to do is leave a new filter pad for the QT filter inside your sump or fuge of your display tank. This filter pad will quickly become colonized with beneficial bacteria from your display tank. When it's time to set up the QT, just take the filter pad out of the sump/fuge and put it in your HOT filter with water change water from your display and you instantly have a cycled tank with a bacteria colony ready to handle your new addition. Add a heater, the pvc mentioned above, and a small light and you're ready to go. I would not add any coral to your QT to keep 'in waiting' for your display. Natures reefs took millions of years to form, don't rush your tank. 4-6 weeks really isn't that long.

A refugium is an entirely different setup than a sump and/or a QT. Running any size fuge is better than none at all. It is added water volume (a plus) to your system, it will house additional LR rubble for pods to propagate in, and as you already know, it's a great place to grow chaetomorpha to help export nutrients. The term 'refugium' is defined as a 'safe haven to take refuge in'. Therefore it is important to remember not to put any predatory critters inside your fuge. A predatory critter can be as inoccuous as a hermit crab. If the hermit crab were to eat pods for instance, then it is considered predatory towards the pods.....something you're trying to get to reproduce in your fuge. When adding anything to your fuge, give it some thought and try to think one step ahead of that animal. What will it eat? If it is something you're trying to protect, propagate, or have reproduce, then don't add it.

Again, as I'm sure you're aware, your ammonia and nitrite levels indicate your cycle is not nearly complete. Patience is the name of the game right now. One of the things you can do is get yourself a nice red LED flashlight and check out your tank when the lights in the tank are out and the lights in the room your tank is in are out for a couple of hours. Look VERY closely at the smallest (pinpoint size) particles in your tank, on your sandbed, on your glass, on your rock and see if they move. You'll be amazed at the life that is starting in your tank at this very early stage. Watch these little tiny animals grow and reproduce as the weeks pass. These beginning stages will offer you an appreciation for your system that will bring your awareness down to the microscopic level.

Again, welcome to MR and have a great time here.
Russ

 

[Marcellina]

Seascape and H2O thank you so much for your responses as well. I think I just found out how to set it so that I get an email notification when someone answers.:duh:

 

[Marcellina]

I have a 29G BioCube with a Koralia 1 pump, Oceanic Protein Skimmer. Im not using the bioballs, I have a mesh bag with a few tablespoons of carbon and some LR rubble in the back chamber. The lights are the ones that come standard with the biocube.

I dont have a sump. I am researching how I would be able to do create one with the biocube and am hitting a dead end. Many people have told me its not possible. The best that I can hope to do is to put some chaeto in the middle compartment in the back of my tank (where the LR and carbon are at the moment) and add a small light and that should be fine bc chaeto is forgiving. Does this sound right to you? Im very new to this so any opinions help. I didnt know I needed a sump to have a refugium? My original idea was to have a 5 gallon tank under my DT in the stand and make a refugium out of that. But like I said alot of people are disuading me from that saying its impossible.

No coral slow down a bit first get your DT set up and cycled . what kind of equipment are u using?, skimmer, lights,etc . how big is your sump and how much room you got in it usually a section of your sump is your refugium , some pics of your set up would help .

 

[18oreefer]

All that water changing, are you using RO (reverse osmosis) water?

 

[Marcellina]

At first I was using RO water that I purchased from the LFS but now I am adding Aqueon water conditioner to my tap water and sealife salt.

In my QT my fish are active and playful, the frogspawn it opening up more now and the zoas are peeking out even more. Oh I have two small acan frags that are actually puffed out now.

I would think that they would be behaving 'normal' with the water not so good. Is it the PRIME binder that is not allowing the water to be toxic that is making them act normal?

 

[KathyC]

At first I was using RO water that I purchased from the LFS but now I am adding Aqueon water conditioner to my tap water and sealife salt.

In my QT my fish are active and playful, the frogspawn it opening up more now and the zoas are peeking out even more. Oh I have two small acan frags that are actually puffed out now.

I would think that they would be behaving 'normal' with the water not so good. Is it the PRIME binder that is not allowing the water to be toxic that is making them act normal?

Hi there Marcellina, welcome to MR

What are the standard lights in a 29g biocube?

Yes it is the Prime that is making your fish act 'normal' simply because it is binding the damaging ammonia. A cycling tank should be allowed to cycle for about 6 weeks before you add anything to it (yes, I know they are in your QT at this point).

'Good' water vs toxic water isn't quite how you want to look at it
Rodi water is what you want to have in your DT. It is pure water with all of the nasty stuff tanken out of it. Is is more toruble to make, yup, but well worth it when you don't end up with algae issues, which is what you WILL have by using tap water (conditioned or not).

Ideally you do want to purchase a rodi unit and make your own water (well worth the investment). They are often found for sale (used) on our Marketplace pages

At this point, since your numbers are better in your DT, you might as well move them over, but I do need to say that you are moving along way too quickly. Near as I can figure, you set up the DT about 7/26..by now, there should still be nothing in there but water, sand & rocks...without all of your levels down to zero, you really should wait. Then the first thing that should have been added would have been a 'clean up crew'..hermits, a few snails and such. Then you might add a fish or two - s l o w l y - so the tank is able to acclimate to the fish )) by growing enough bacteria to take care of digesting their...err...poop..and uneaten food.
After that you might have wanted to try your hand at some corals..but it seems we are past that point...so move 'em over and cross your fingers, but please don't add anything new for a while (meaning at least a few weeks please )!

Do be sure the salinity & temp & PH (more important than either of the other 2 numbers...) matches between the 2 tanks!!!

If the corals have been under no lights, you want to place them at the bottom of the tank for a week or 2 and then move them up slowly (still not sure what lights you have there...the acans (truly not a good idea at this point....who sold you acans for a brand new tank??? :sigh should stay on the bottom.

Biocubes are very difficult to add sumps/fuges to, the transfer of water from one tank to another can be asking for trouble. Best for now, to learn with what you have and keep it stable and allow it to establish itself..can always move onwards & upwards from here!

Please do get a rodi unit ~

 

[Marcellina]

Thank you Kathy for your reply.

I know I am moving way too fast! Believe me its upseting to me that this is happening and that I brought this on myself. I thought I was doing such a good thing to set up the QT. That way I would be able to watch the few livestock that I wanted in my tank and make sure they were healthy etc. Then I was going to add them little bit at a time.

But now I figured as much that its probably better for them if I move them into my DT. The DT has only NutriSeaWater and RO water when I did a water change yesterday to see if I could bring the Nitrite down a bit. It didnt lower it. The PH today looked like 8.4-8.8 the color was in between.

The temp is the same in both tanks, the SG is off by .01 (DT is 1.25 and QT is 1.26) The PH is higher in the DT, how do I bring the PH down?

The light I ordered for the QT will arrive tomorrow its a 20" Coralife Saltwater ES53000 Aqualight 1X28 Watt Single Bulb Compact

This is what is in my DT:

 

[Marcellina]

Oh I forgot to mention that my DT tank does have a small CUC in there, a few hermits, snails an emerald crab and one peppermint shrimp. They have been cleaning alot but they are leaving behind lots of poop on the sand and rocks, how do I go about removing that?

 

[KathyC]

Are you feeding the cuc? Don't. They are there to eat the crud from the rocks and fish poop (once the fish are in of course!)

Cool on the lights, you should be able to keep a variety of softer corals with those.

What kind of test are you using for the PH? That is your biggest issue and you do NOT want to use a chemical to lower it (please, please, don't as it will only bounce back shortly after you do it...).

Measure the PH of the water you are using. Are you adding anything at all to the packaged water you are using? That PH is a too high, for your corals & fish at 8.8
I'd wait until the light of day tomorrow and test again. You don't want to even try to acclimate anything to it. (PH is like the earthquake scale..each .01 is 100 times stronger than the number before it...) K?

Technically the QT would have been fine with your standard lighting from a FW tank..unless you plan to QT corals for an extended period of time.

Oh, knew I forgot something!! Once you use a product like Prime (or Ammo Lock) - your ammonia kit will NOT GIVE YOU CORRECT READINGS! If you followed the directions properly then yes, your fish will be safe from ammonia buring their gills, but you won't truly be able to test the water for ammonia unless you get a kit made by Kordon (IIRC) that is specifically for testing after using that product..it uses tablets (2 I think) and it's a royal pita to use.. but it is accurate. It also takes many, many water changes to get the Prime out of your tank entirely, so at least keep testing your nitrite - as long as that is above zero - you are still processing ammonia in the tank. One it drops to zero and stays there, you should not have to add any more Prime.


..and use only water changes to get the PH to its proper level!!

 

[Marcellina]

Thank so much for all your help!

No I am not feeding the CUC. I put them in to clean up the algae that was forming and the diatom.

I am measuring the PH with API High Range Test. I dont want to use chemical if I dont have to thats why I just left it alone until I got some advice on here. I will test it again tomorrow morning. Would another water change tomorrow bring it down? What is the best PH to have it at? The QT is at 8.4, thats the highest it should ever be and still be ok right?

Im glad the lights are good for soft corals, I want to only have peaceful easy corals and livestock in my tank.
I got the better lights bc I thought that the corals(zoas,acans and frogspawn are considered corals right? dont laugh im new! lol) had to stay in the QT for at least 4 weeks bc I put them in with the fish. I have heard that people usually QT corals for up to 2 weeks and fish 4 weeks. My intention was to have the QT up for 4 to 6 weeks but I dont think thats gonna happen now right? I wish it could but whatever is best for my little guys in the QT.

Ok so I will try and find the ammonia test tomorrow that you recommend.

I added some more Prime today bc I did a water change in there to lower the ammonia level. How often am I supposed to use it? I use very little like 5ml for the 10G. Is it possible to overdose the tank with that?

No more water changes in the QT? Is that bc the Prime is taking care of everything that is harmful.

Also what do I do to the DT to get the PH down if its still high tomorrow?

 

[Marcellina]

Can I put Chaeto in the QT to get rid of the Nitrite ? In face can I put it in the DT as well? I have read so many good things about this stuff removing nitrite and that alot of people set up a refugium with this stuff bc of it.

 

[KathyC]

Can I put Chaeto in the QT to get rid of the Nitrite ? In face can I put it in the DT as well? I have read so many good things about this stuff removing nitrite and that alot of people set up a refugium with this stuff bc of it.

It removes nitrates not nitrites

In the DT it can get messy unless you put it in a bag that it has room to move in.