Cycling Confusion

[cjosephson66]

Hi Everyone,

I started cycling my tank the weekend of January 8th. Added saltwater, substrate and live sand. January 12th received the live rock and added it. On January 17th added 4 assorted damsels. Now I have the diatom on the sand and rocks, and a couple of little dots of green algae on the rocks. I have also been doing 10% water changes every 2 weeks like the tank manufacturer stated. The ammonia is finally down to 1.0 (it was 5.0 for the longest time-even after adding prime). The damsel fish eat 3 times a day and have a great appetite. They are also very civil to each other, even though I read that they are very territorial.

My questions are,

1) Do I take out the live rock and scrub the algae off of it like the tank manufacturer states? I thought the diatom and algae were part of the cycling process.

2) The tank manufacturer also states to add the cleaning crew now. I thought the ammonia should be 0 before I put any other livestock in the tank. Damsels are hardy, but what about herbivores?

I really appreciate all the help that I've received from everyone so far. I'm just confused on why the manufacturer would ask me to do those things.

Thanks,

Claire

 

[bogliman]

i think you added your fish too fast.
When i started my tank my LFS told me to cycle the tank for a month and cover surroundings with news paper and make sure no light goes in the tank so no algae comes out in there while you change your water weekly.
after the month is over then you check your water parameters for SG, amonia, phosphate, magnesium, calcium, nitrate/nitrite and everything else then if they're all good then you add your cleaning crew first(snails, shrimps, brittlestars, crabs) then slowly add your animals or corals first then fish.

feed your fish every other day. they won't die if you don't feed them everyday and check your temp. the higher temp the more diatoms you'll get 76-78 should be perfect. you'll start getting the diatoms because of feeding the fish too much and at 80deg F and higher. 85 temp starts stressing the corals then they're gonners above that temp.

 

[Arati]

1) Do I take out the live rock and scrub the algae off of it like the tank manufacturer states? I thought the diatom and algae were part of the cycling process.

I woudlnt take it out, i would turn off the lights for the entire cycling time so as not to encourage algea growth. I guess if its ultra nasty you could take it out and scrub it in the water you drained out for the water change. but I would not.

2) The tank manufacturer also states to add the cleaning crew now. I thought the ammonia should be 0 before I put any other livestock in the tank. Damsels are hardy, but what about herbivores?

To be honest you didnt even need to add the damsels. I would wait on the clean up crew until you are done with the cycle. when your nitrite and ammonia are zero, and your nitrate has come down to zero also or almost zero.

 

[cjosephson66]

i think you added your fish too fast.
When i started my tank my LFS told me to cycle the tank for a month and cover surroundings with news paper and make sure no light goes in the tank so no algae comes out in there while you change your water weekly.
after the month is over then you check your water parameters for SG, amonia, phosphate, magnesium, calcium, nitrate/nitrite and everything else then if they're all good then you add your cleaning crew first(snails, shrimps, brittlestars, crabs) then slowly add your animals or corals first then fish.

feed your fish every other day. they won't die if you don't feed them everyday and check your temp. the higher temp the more diatoms you'll get 76-78 should be perfect. you'll start getting the diatoms because of feeding the fish too much and at 80deg F and higher. 85 temp starts stressing the corals then they're gonners above that temp.

Thank you for your information, I really appreciate it. The only reason I added the damsels are because my friend is a marine biologist and she said that damsels are great in helping to cycle the tank (maybe I should have checked here first). All of my water parameters are normal except for the ammonia. The nitrate and nitrite are almost at 0. The algae that are accumulating are only tiny dots in some areas but nothing substantial. The damsels seem to pick on them so they're helping with that. I suck up the diatoms with every water change and there isn't much of that either.

The salinity is 1.025 and the temp fluctuates between 75 and 76. I don't have any corals, the only thing I have is the live rock, sand and fish for now.

 

[cjosephson66]

1) Do I take out the live rock and scrub the algae off of it like the tank manufacturer states? I thought the diatom and algae were part of the cycling process.

I woudlnt take it out, i would turn off the lights for the entire cycling time so as not to encourage algea growth. I guess if its ultra nasty you could take it out and scrub it in the water you drained out for the water change. but I would not.

2) The tank manufacturer also states to add the cleaning crew now. I thought the ammonia should be 0 before I put any other livestock in the tank. Damsels are hardy, but what about herbivores?

To be honest you didnt even need to add the damsels. I would wait on the clean up crew until you are done with the cycle. when your nitrite and ammonia are zero, and your nitrate has come down to zero also or almost zero.

Thanks for the info. The algae are just a couple of tiny dots on the rocks and the damsels seem to like eating them. The only reason I got the damsels is because my friend is a marine biologist and she said that she uses them to help cycle her tanks. It's weird that the ammonia is really high but the nitrate and nitrites are almost 0.

Again, thanks for your help.

 

[basiab]

Those are some hardy damsels with ammonia that high.
There is a lot of info on cycling on MR. I would suggest you read it. You are mid way through this doing it your way so for starters don't add anything more at this time. If you plan on keeping the damsels then leave them but if not I would return them now. Then based on what you read decide your next steps. There are a lot of ways to get through this. You have to decide which suites you best. Everyone has a method that they swear by and they do work. You can avoid a lot of problems if you pick a method and stick with it all the way through.

 

[Arati]

As the ammonia comes down, the nitrite will go up. then as the nitrite comes down, the nitrate will go up. then you wait for the nitrate to come down and you are done.

Its not bad for the tank to have the damsels in there. the idea is they produce the ammonia that starts the cycle. thing is the die off from the live rock would have done the same thing. being in water like yours is hard on the fish, so we generaly dont use them anymore. since most of us have a soft spot for fishes.

 

[cjosephson66]

Those are some hardy damsels with ammonia that high.
There is a lot of info on cycling on MR. I would suggest you read it. You are mid way through this doing it your way so for starters don't add anything more at this time. If you plan on keeping the damsels then leave them but if not I would return them now. Then based on what you read decide your next steps. There are a lot of ways to get through this. You have to decide which suites you best. Everyone has a method that they swear by and they do work. You can avoid a lot of problems if you pick a method and stick with it all the way through.

I've been reading up a lot on here since I found it. I wish I knew about MR BEFORE I listened to my friend. I guess you live and learn. I am going to keep the damsels because they are not aggressive like I've been reading about and they are all different colors so they do make the tank look good. Plus, I love how they follow me around the room when I go in to take care of the tank or feed them.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[cjosephson66]

As the ammonia comes down, the nitrite will go up. then as the nitrite comes down, the nitrate will go up. then you wait for the nitrate to come down and you are done.

Its not bad for the tank to have the damsels in there. the idea is they produce the ammonia that starts the cycle. thing is the die off from the live rock would have done the same thing. being in water like yours is hard on the fish, so we generaly dont use them anymore. since most of us have a soft spot for fishes.

That's why I wish I knew about MR before I started. Now I know better. The ammonia used to be at 7.5 before I added the fish, but my friend suggested to use them like she does to cycle the tank. The ammonia is down to 1.0 so I'm hoping that keeping up the water changes and checking the levels constantly will help with that. I'll know better next time. I am keeping all of the damsels because they are very docile (even though that's not what I'm told) and I've grown a great liking to them. I'm not adding anything else until the ammonia is down to 0 and everything else is at the perfect level.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Imbarrie]

You can leave your lights on during cycling. You are going to go through algae cycles either way. This also helps you arrange your rocks to your liking before you add fish.
I don't like the idea of cycling tanks with fish. I think it's cruel and not in sync with the care and attention we give for our livestock. Even for a damsel which are the most unlined fish.

There are some guides to cycling marine tanks in here and online. I feel your friend is knowledgeable but it always helps to get several opinions and decide for yourself what makes sense for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

 

[Imbarrie]

PS
You should be testing everything throughout the whole process so you know where your levels are.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

 

[DJYoshi]

PS
You should be testing everything throughout the whole process so you know where your levels are.Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

+1
You can never test too much. It's tedious & you feel like you're spending 30 minutes on testing your params, but def worth it.
Welcome to the reefing world... it's freakin awesome!

 

[cjosephson66]

You can leave your lights on during cycling. You are going to go through algae cycles either way. This also helps you arrange your rocks to your liking before you add fish.
I don't like the idea of cycling tanks with fish. I think it's cruel and not in sync with the care and attention we give for our livestock. Even for a damsel which are the most unlined fish.

There are some guides to cycling marine tanks in here and online. I feel your friend is knowledgeable but it always helps to get several opinions and decide for yourself what makes sense for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. I am leaving the lights on because they are on a timer, LED Whitish during the day and Blue lights at night. I already have the diatom in the tank and I'm waiting for the tank to finish cycling before I introduce the cleaning crew. I'm just siphoning out as much as I can when I do the 10% water changes weekly. All of the water parameters are fine with the exception of the ammonia. That is at 1.0 and I'm waiting for that to go down to 0 before adding anything else. I've been lucky with the algae so far. I have a small dot here and there on the live rock but no more than that. I guess it's because the damsels are eating it. I really don't have much of anything on the glass, just the diatom on the live sand. So I guess I'm pretty lucky (so far).

If I knew that it wasn't good to put the damsels in the tank during cycling I would have never done it. I have grown attached to the 4 damsels in my tank and I would hate for anything to happen to them. I love the way that they follow me around the room when I'm attending to the tank. And they will let you hand feed them. It's pretty cool.

I guess it's all about the waiting game. I have been checking the parameters every 3 days instead of every week and making sure the salinity and temperature stay the same daily (salinity fluctuates between 1.024 & 1.025 and temp fluctuates between 74-75 degrees daily).

Thanks again, and stay safe in this crazy snow.

 

[cjosephson66]

+1
You can never test too much. It's tedious & you feel like you're spending 30 minutes on testing your params, but def worth it.
Welcome to the reefing world... it's freakin awesome!

Thanks. I've been testing the ammonia everyday, because I'm anal that way. I test all of the other parameters every 3 days. The salinity and temp are tested daily with the digital thermometer and a hydrometer.

I don't care how long it takes, I just want to keep the damsels safe until the live rock cures and cycling completes.

 

[cjosephson66]

PS
You should be testing everything throughout the whole process so you know where your levels are.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

I actually over test just to be sure.

 

[DJYoshi]

I actually over test just to be sure.

agreed on testing on a daily basis. since there's no livestock, I think you can get away with testing for:
ph
ammonia
nitrite
nitrate.

you should be far along enough already that ammonia & nitrite should be at 0 and the nitrate should be spiking..or spiked already and coming down now.

just don't make the mistake of throwing in a ton of livestock in there from the get go.
I'd say take this time to get all your live rock in, arrange it the way that you like..so when the initial nitro cycle is complete you can add add 1 maybe 2 fish tops and a cleaning crew.

if you're gonna do a reef tank, then i'd say you might want to start dosing mag, cal & alk buffer after the cycle to raise those params up so that you're ready for coral
(magnesium: 1250 - 1350 +/- 10)
(kh: 8.2 - 12 [depending on the coral you're going to keep])
(calcium: 350 - 450)
& def test for phosphates... I had a RIDICULOUS outbreak of diatoms...

 

[Imbarrie]

Diatoms are following an algae bloom cycle. They will consume what they need to and then they will die off. The clean up crew will also take care of them.
You can expect to see other algae blooms of hair algae and cyanno bacteria. The last is the worst as nothing eats it.
RODI, frequent water changes and siphoning the stuff out will get on top of things.
A major food source of algae is phosphates added from fish food so keep an eye on what you are feeding.

 

[cjosephson66]

agreed on testing on a daily basis. since there's no livestock, I think you can get away with testing for:
ph
ammonia
nitrite
nitrate.

you should be far along enough already that ammonia & nitrite should be at 0 and the nitrate should be spiking..or spiked already and coming down now.

just don't make the mistake of throwing in a ton of livestock in there from the get go.
I'd say take this time to get all your live rock in, arrange it the way that you like..so when the initial nitro cycle is complete you can add add 1 maybe 2 fish tops and a cleaning crew.

if you're gonna do a reef tank, then i'd say you might want to start dosing mag, cal & alk buffer after the cycle to raise those params up so that you're ready for coral
(magnesium: 1250 - 1350 +/- 10)
(kh: 8.2 - 12 [depending on the coral you're going to keep])
(calcium: 350 - 450)
& def test for phosphates... I had a RIDICULOUS outbreak of diatoms...

Thanks for the info. I already have had 4 damsels for over a week and they are doing fine. I was told they help cycle the tank. Now I know better not to next time. They are healthy and I checked my readings today. Everything is what it's supposed to be at with the exception of the ammonia/nitrate/nitrite. Like you said, the ammonia is finally at 0.25 (it was 1.0 yesterday). the Nitrate is high at 20 (it was 2.5 yesterday) and the nitrite is >1 (it was 0.05 yesterday). The live rock is placed in the perfect position for the fish to hide and swim freely (they like the tank so far). I'm just waiting for the ammonia and nitrate to go to 0 before I add the cleaning crew. As for the coral, I haven't decided if I'm going to add it. I am getting anemones and starfish so I don't know if coral is a good thing to add, since some starfish eat coral.

I'm just going to take it slow and not rush anything. I just can't wait for the diatom to disappear because it looks nasty.

 

[cjosephson66]

Diatoms are following an algae bloom cycle. They will consume what they need to and then they will die off. The clean up crew will also take care of them.
You can expect to see other algae blooms of hair algae and cyanno bacteria. The last is the worst as nothing eats it.
RODI, frequent water changes and siphoning the stuff out will get on top of things.
A major food source of algae is phosphates added from fish food so keep an eye on what you are feeding.

I want to wait until the ammonia and nitrate are down to 0 before I add the cleaning crew. Even though the damsels are doing great, I changed their feeding from 3 to 2 times a day. In the morning I give them dethawed mysis or brine shrimp (I alternate each day) and in the evening I give them flake food because it contains the vitamins they need.

Today the ammonia finally went down from 1 to 0.25, but the nitrate is up to 20 from 2.5 and the nitrite is up to >1 from 0.05. I test these every day because of the damsels (and because I'm a little anal that way). I'm guessing that's normal until the tank is fully cycled but the diatom is so damned ugly to look at. That's why I siphon as much as I can with the water changes. The algae is just in little spots here and there but not enough to be concerned about (I think).

Thanks for your advice, you have no idea how much it's appreciated. I've been reading all about cycling on this site and I really am learning a lot.

 

[Arati]

just an fyi i feed my fish every 2-3 days. and they are healthy and spawning, the clowns and the bangi spawn all the time.