Nitrates

[loismustdie]

IME, PO4 is worse on my tank than NO3.
How's monti and the little one?

 

[KathyC]

Kathy:
For a fuge using algae to be successful at removing nutrients to a noticeable level and effecting low pH at night, it needs to be:
1)At a bare minimum, 1/3 the size of the main a display with a very modest bioload.
2)Good enough flow that detritus cannot settle between macros and on the bottom but low enough flow to allow algae to anchor(culerpa) or maintain it's form and not be released into pumps (cheato) and blow sand/mud all over the place.
3)Pruned regularly and completely removed from the system.
4)Additional supplements added for the algae to grow (cheato need iron)
5)Exceptional skimming.

Successful tanks that I have seen using refugiums are rare. I have only seen 2 in person. Both were over 3/4 the size of the main display and both used far more than the recommended rating for skimming. 1 had a bioload so low that I swear this guy was looking to never, ever change water. The other had a much, much heavier bioload, but used much more skimming.

I have never seen a tank that 90% or Manhattan Reefers would consider a "good" tank using those miracle mud, HOB systems. Never.

Mike (slamajama) is doing his right for the room he has available. He's not trying to control nutrients. He's not trying to balance pH at night (overrated problem which a good skimmer can correct to acceptable levels). He wants a better pod population for his wrasses. He's going with a section of his sump with no substrate. Just some LR and high flow. Ambient light from his main display will be a sufficient food source for algae. No cheato or culerpa. Film algae is fine. The stuff we scrape off the front glass.

So...my system is a 75g DT, 30g long fuge with 3 inches of sand, chaeto & caulerpa (that anchored in the sand by itself), some LR and 1 Fire Shrimp (who I can't catch & doesn't belong there), and about 20 snails (don't recall the type).
Current flow is about 900gph from the main pump/return but I supplement it in the fuge compartment with a Powersweep PH..no detritus on the sand. Can't say I prune on a regular basis...but I guess I'll start. I do remove any that isn't brightly colored from time to time. The lighting is on an opposite cycle from my DT and my PH runs 8.2 at night (8.4 day) according to my monitor.
I don't add iron but will look into it more (and get a test kit for iron..). Any suggestion on the amount to dose?

Regarding the skimmer... I just got an MRC2 with dual beckett injectors (do guys dig chicks with becketts...lol), so I guess I'll have the skimming part covered too once I get it cleaned and set up.

How am I doing so far?
BTW- I have about a bazillion pods in my fuge.

...and yes, Slama does everything right..and his tank is beautiful!

Thanks for posting this Chris, I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was curious about your opinion on this subject!

 

[loismustdie]

Regarding the skimmer... I just got an MRC2 with dual beckett injectors (do guys dig chicks with becketts...lol),

You're so much hotter now.
Don't dose the iron if it's working without it. Don't dose what you don't test for.
You are roughly in the 1/3rd rule. Closer to half.
I now relinquish all fuge ?'s to Kathy and mike. They got it right... but Kathy, you do have to show us display pics.

 

[KathyC]

You're so much hotter now.
Don't dose the iron if it's working without it. Don't dose what you don't test for.
You are roughly in the 1/3rd rule. Closer to half.
I now relinquish all fuge ?'s to Kathy and mike. They got it right... but Kathy, you do have to show us display pics.

LOL...maybe once I rip all my plumbing out and actually install it.
I wouldn't dose anything without a test kit..rule # 1 from what I've been taught! But would like to make the fuge perform even better if possible.
Hope to have up more pics in the next few days...
Thx!!

 

[cali_reef]

I don't make this stuff up. I'm not smart enough. It is what I have seen. 1/3 is far too generous.

1/3 of the total water volume or 1/3 of surface area? Shouldn't the mass of macro algae more related to how much it will retain NO3 vs, how much water it is grown in?

 

[ellebelle]

I'm still trying to decide if I want to put a fuge on my upgraded system. I put the fuge on this system for pod production, not for nitrate export. It does an excellent job of pod production, but I'm not really sure if it's really doing much for me as far as nitrate transport. My nitrates are undetectable, but I also do very regular waterchanges and am skimming for far more water volume than I have (though I don't have a Beckett, so I guess dudes won't dig me) in order to compensate for a higher bioload.

 

[loismustdie]

LOL...maybe once I rip all my plumbing out and actually install it.
I wouldn't dose anything without a test kit..rule # 1 from what I've been taught! But would like to make the fuge perform even better if possible.
Hope to have up more pics in the next few days...
Thx!!

Wait a second... so that whole thing was a "theoretical" refugium? It's not even up yet? That doesn't count! We don't know if it works until it's actually running.
Yes, as Cali said and I should have, 1/3rd the surface area. I would bet a fuge with cheato would be much more effective using a shallow and large tank rather than a deep one.
Lissa, if it's pod population you're looking for, you can just do what mike is going to do. I know people who place sponge filter pads rather than LR in the chamber and let flow from a PH hit it. They adjust the grain of the sponge to hit the size population they want. I would just go course. Big pods are little pods before they are big pods.
I'm not completely against fuges. Even smaller ones. We just tend to give them much more credit that they deserve and we really need to try to treat them more like we treat our displays which is provide them with really good flow and keep up on maintenance. There are benefits involved in fuges, but there are drawbacks as well.

 

[loismustdie]

:backtotop
When things were going bad on my tank, My NO3 was reading between 40 and 100 ppm (depending on who's kit was used).
Problems were:
1)LR used to break up bubbles in the first chamber of my sump.
2)My refugium was loaded with crap. So was my sump.
3)Inefficient skimming.
4)Way too much food for the fish.
5)I was keeping some coral which needed to be target fed.
Solutions:
1)removed the rock and replaced with removable bubble towers and filter socks.
2)Removed the refugium completely. I couldn't believe how much crap was in this thing. I now also vacuum my sump weekly.
3)Got better skimming.
4)I'm still MR's unofficial over feeder of fish.
5)I got rid of my sun polyps and mostly all of my LPS. I'm pretty much SPS specific now. I'm currently doing a feeding regiment, but no where close to Blu Coral/ pappone methods, or what I was feeding before.
My Nitrates now show undetectable. I know most of these kits suck and can vary from kit to kit, but I'm really not afraid of NO3, so I don't feel a Hanna or a $300 nitrate monitor is worth the cost. If you go after your PO4, NO3 seems to follow. NO3 isn't as bad as long as your PO4 is low.

 

[KathyC]

Wait a second... so that whole thing was a "theoretical" refugium? It's not even up yet? That doesn't count! We don't know if it works until it's actually running.

The fuge has been set up since day 1 on my tank! ! It's just the beckett skimmer that I haven't installed yet, just got it 4 days ago...it will be done this weekend.

Now...:backtotop

 

[loismustdie]

The fuge has been set up since day 1 on my tank! ! It's just the beckett skimmer that I haven't installed yet, just got it 4 days ago...it will be done this weekend.

Now...:backtotop

oh:redface:

 

[spykes]

i have never kepted a tank with macro alone but i think it's workable if you use natural sunlight or a 175 watt MH to power a fuge. iron suppliments along with iodine.

 

[ellebelle]

How do you vaccuum your sump? I noticed I have some detrius in there that I'd like to get rid of and I tried using a turkey baster to get it out and was unsuccessful.

 

[cali_reef]

How do you vaccuum your sump? I noticed I have some detrius in there that I'd like to get rid of and I tried using a turkey baster to get it out and was unsuccessful.

Best vacuum cleaner we have owned:

:joke:

I use a mag 3 with hoses attached to the inlet during water changes.

 

[loismustdie]

Best vacuum cleaner we have owned:

:joke:

I use a mag 3 with hoses attached to the inlet during water changes.

I'm not going to lie. I've used my wet/dry vac to empty my sump before. But Pierce has the preferred method.
My sump is in my basement, so it's elevated off of the ground. Easy siphoning works for me.

 

[Wes]

I'm not going to lie. I've used my wet/dry vac to empty my sump before. But Pierce has the preferred method.
My sump is in my basement, so it's elevated off of the ground. Easy siphoning works for me.

I use a shop vac. I had a hard time getting a syphon so I bought a 6 gallon shop vac from home depot for $40. Rigid is the manufacturer and it works great!

We got one of those dysons as a wedding gift. I heard the are great but we can't use it until after thw wedding. Apparently it's bad luck. :

 

[jackson6745]

Sometimes you have to sit back and think just how ghey this hobby is

 

[loismustdie]

Sometimes you have to sit back and think just how ghey this hobby is

:biglaugh:
go video tape your tank. I want to know what the fish hear.

 

[gnatp2]

Rich, I read that article about 8 months ago when I was having problems with high nitrates (20-30). Since then I gave the AZNO3 a shot (don't think it did anything, but I didn't use it religously). Then I decided to add a refugium. My phosphates were still high back then (around .25), but phosphates weren't the hot topic like they are now so I didn't care as much. After adding a large ball of chaeto, my nitrates went down to 1-2ppm over a month while my phosphates still stayed high. Just my experience, but I found a refugium to be an effective remover of nitrates, but not phosphates.

Nate

 

[jackson6745]

IME a fuge is helpful in lowering nitrates but your phosphate will still remain high.

Nate I agree and experienced the same thing

 

[Wes]

with all the effort it takes to "properly" run a refugium + GFO you would think more people would use a zeo system. I still want to see what my P04 reads on a Hanna w/ ultralith and no other form of phosphate remover.

i am curious what a monthly cost analysis comparing the two methods looks like.