Great presentation Solbby

[prattreef]

First, I want to apologize for having to cut the discussion so short yesterday--logistical commitments beyond my control if we were to use that space for lectures at all. I was hoping those interested would just find a corner in the main room and continue, but I guess it never happened.

I can certainly get samples from Atlantis Marine World whose water is collected in the LI sound, but it is filtered in some capacity before use (I can easily find out in what way) as is common practice at most public aquariums. A sample pre filteration, post filtration and from the reef system might prove interesting... or maybe not?

 

[alrha]

Randy, no need to apologize, if not for you we would not even have seen the presentation in the first place.

interesting idea regarding the pre/post filtration samples. i'd be impressed though if their filtration is able to filter out bacteria (unless they do something like boil the water before use or something like that)

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

i'd be impressed though if their filtration is able to filter out bacteria

Why not? Bacteria is not very small. Plus there are many methods to filter "things" in our water.

 

[meschaefer]

Why not? Bacteria is not very small. Plus there are many methods to filter "things" in our water.

It's been awhile since I researched water filtration units for backpacking, but if I remember correctly it should not be very hard to filter out bacteria.

 

[ShaunW]

WOW this thread is taking off, and there are so many lines of thoughts present, and great ideas being thrown around .

Thanks Shaun! Would adding some few day old NSW from the Caribbean increase the amount of bacteria in my system?

NP Pierce. No it wouldn't. I am of the belief now that it is quite hard to increase the bacterial population by simple methods like adding a small amount of water (under 1 gallon) .

I would like to once again THANK Randy, Pierce, and Christine for their input and help. Randy there is no need to apologize for anything. Your hospitality was fantastic and we are all grateful!

 

[ShaunW]

Shaun, I am betting that tanks that use NSW are going to look more like our tanks than the ocean because it's not connected to the ocean. I have a hunch that the way we "crowd" animals and rocks into our small oceans has a dramatic affect on the bacterial population in suspension. I am not sure about the effect on the bacterial population in the corals, as this is such a different situation - these bacteria have what they want - a home, food source... but the bacteria in solution in the ocean are searching, if you will - and what they are searching for they just won't find the same way in our tanks.

....I would be interested to see the difference between tanks of dramatically different size - like comparison of a 10,000 gal system (sea world) and a 500 gal system (Sanjay) and a 50 gal system... but truly, compared the the scale fo the ocean and the confounding of the way we stock our show tanks so differently from the way the ocean is "stocked," I'm thinking we'll still see an order of magnitude difference.

...would also be interesting to see the differene in a place like Sea World or Coral World (in eilat) where there are systems that are actually connected to the ocean!!! (can i get a grant to go take those samples for you?...)

-tahl

I completely agree Tahl, however we could be surprised also if there are differences. A bigger system could possibily have a more robust bacterial population and come closer to nature.

 

[ShaunW]

one other thought, Shaun you said our tanks were starved in comparison to the reefs. well how much bacteria do out coral need to grow? Is the amount present in out tanks not sufficient? It seems my corals grow and are happy.

Jon, another great question! Why didn't you ask this during the presentation :wink1: . I can't answer it completely except to say that everybody's definition of "happy" is relative! There are some reefers that have outstanding color and growth, way above the rest. In nature corals grow like weeds and can be much more colorful than in captivity. WHY the difference?? (hint, hint).

As for whether our tanks are starved, well that is my guess and estimation. We make up for it by adding dead food that begins to decompose the instant it touchs the water. Have a robust living population of food that doesn't become inorganic waste easily would be much better and healther IMO.

 

[ShaunW]

Well the question here would be the diversity of the strains of bacteria.

Say a well established tank with little new introductions (which can reintroduce bacteria) might it suffer from certain strains of bacteria simply dying off? in which case it may not be a matter of improving the existing bacterial concentration, but rather introducing the strains which have died off.

Yes the diversity is important and having bacterial populations that are fitted for life in an aquatic, reef environment. Having specialized bacteria that will act as part of the normal flora/ecosystem adding their benefit to the whole.

In many ways it does depend on the species of bacteria we are talking about and the biochemical reactions it can perform.

Furthermore, might it be possible that our tank conditions can only support say 10% of the types of bacteria found on a reef and that the other 90% simply cant survive in our systems?

This is highly probable.

 

[daisy]

As far as the filtering the NSW before it hits the tank in systems that are otherwise "contiguous" with the sea - whether or not the filter actually removes the bacteria is almost irrelevant, since it changes the makeup of the NSW in SOME way, and that change simply alters the environment for the bacteria. the bacteria then either choose to leave somehow (enter a different part of the system - the sand bed, the corals, the filter...) or die off b/c what has been removed in some way was necessary to the bacteria!

I think what would be utterly cool would be to determine the different types of environments that might give different results, and then do several samples on all those different environments and compare them, then control for confounding, take out similarities and narrow down what the possible variables are that seem to control for bacteria in solution...

I bet working together and meeting (over beer/dinner) to learn how to gather the samples the same way, we could get samples enough to do this over the next year... maybe...

Shaun, the samples don't need to be fixed or anything, right? you put the water into the sperm, ah, bacterial counter container, look under a scope and count, yes? (I didn't take notes, so I don't remember the exact procedure...)

btw, how did you keep the bacteria from moving around while you were counting them? were they dead by then? if so, how to keep from autolysing?

 

[ShaunW]

Unless the aquarium filtration system has a <1 micron filter on it individual bacterial will enter the system. This is highly improbable, since the filter is a very slow process to have water pass through to filter out the bacteria.

 

[GreshamH]

I can include a few public aquariums in the sampling I have offerred up if you want. I can talk to several that I deal with. I just need the kits and I'll send them out to the Islands and public aquariums for samples If you tell me what to buy, I'll put the kits together myself and mail them out to the respected locations with either return labels, or I'll be present when the shipments come into the wholesalers. I know many people using pacific NSW so I can include a sample of a qualifiing system.

 

[ShaunW]

I can include a few public aquariums in the sampling I have offerred up if you want. I can talk to several that I deal with. I just need the kits and I'll send them out to the Islands and public aquariums for samples If you tell me what to buy, I'll put the kits together myself and mail them out to the respected locations with either return labels, or I'll be present when the shipments come into the wholesalers. I know many people using pacific NSW so I can include a sample of a qualifiing system.

I really would like to get samples from you. Let me know where you can get them, I will post up what I need in more detail for sample testing and work out how to get sterile sample tubes to you. Maybe we can get the ball rolling in the next couple of weeks.

I'm sorry that we didn't get to meet up after the swap with Joe. I was so beat that I basically went home and crashed. I would have liked to show you my system.

 

[ShaunW]

I think what would be utterly cool would be to determine the different types of environments that might give different results, and then do several samples on all those different environments and compare them, then control for confounding, take out similarities and narrow down what the possible variables are that seem to control for bacteria in solution...

It sure would be interesting!

I bet working together and meeting (over beer/dinner) to learn how to gather the samples the same way, we could get samples enough to do this over the next year... maybe...

MR goes out for beer all the time. We all need to do another Sunday afternoon lunch/brunch/drink event.

Shaun, the samples don't need to be fixed or anything, right? you put the water into the sperm, ah, bacterial counter container, look under a scope and count, yes? (I didn't take notes, so I don't remember the exact procedure...)

btw, how did you keep the bacteria from moving around while you were counting them? were they dead by then? if so, how to keep from autolysing?

No they are not fixed and they are alive. The do move a little by Brownian motion and some are motile, however, from years of gram stains and wet mount observations counting the bacteria wasn't too difficult. It does depend alot on the dilution/concentration factor, since I am concentrating the water samples by centrifugation prior to counting. If I didn't only a few bacteria would be present in the field of view.

 

[daisy]

You know, i was going to ask about that - considering the size of the sample, i was surprised at how many you were able to count. i should have figured you spun them down...

i miss this kind of stuff so much!!!! Theology is great fun, but this is a different kind of fun! If you can tell me how the samples are collected, i will see if i can get you a sample or a few from the red sea!

 

[ShaunW]

Tahl, do you access to sterile 15mL tubes? when are you going?

The thing about the ocean and natural reefs, is that the bacterial levels have already been well determined and studied. Many a journal article has been done describing it. So I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but obtaining those samples would be a good control for my techniques.

 

[ellebelle]

How long do you think it takes for a tank to develop bacteria colonies on the order of what is seen in Randy's tanks? After all, there didn't seem to be a lot of difference between Randy's unskimmed tank, his ten year tank, and his more recently set up tank (though the most recently set up tank did use all of the old rock/water but new sand, right)? I found those results to be quite surprising.

Why do you think Randy's tank had higher bacteria populations than yours and Pierce's?

 

[Paul B]

This is very interesting as I have been telling people to add natural bacteria to their tanks for many years. I myself have been adding water and bacteria from the Sound since the seventees. My reef was started with NSW because I could not even get ASW then. I would use 100% Sound water if it were not so heavy. It is fairly easy for me because my boat is in the Sound in Port Washington and I have been diving there for many years. To collect bacteria I go to a muddy beach at low tide. My favorite place to collect it is Huckelberry Island off New Rochelle, it is uninhabited and has a great low tide beach. (you need a boat)
I collect rocks and swirl them in seawater. Whatever falls off I dump in my reef (except for the numerous crabs) That is how I collect amphipods.
My reef is much too clean now due to a very good cleaning with a diatom which filters out items as small as one micron. I had a few problems and had to clean the tank. It really needs some Long Island Sound mud
I use the water right from the Sound without any fanfare except filtering it through a coffee filter to remove the numerous jellyfish and other plankton that will die. If there is red tide in the water I bleach it with Clorox. I believe that the bacterial diversity has contributed to the longivity of my system and may have something to do with the almost disease free history. I have no Idea what types of bacteria I may have in that tank but no doubt some strains have been in there since Nixon was President :smokin:
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[GreshamH]

I really would like to get samples from you. Let me know where you can get them, I will post up what I need in more detail for sample testing and work out how to get sterile sample tubes to you. Maybe we can get the ball rolling in the next couple of weeks.

I'm sorry that we didn't get to meet up after the swap with Joe. I was so beat that I basically went home and crashed. I would have liked to show you my system.

When I recover and get cuaght up at work, I'll get on the horn and get some public aquariums on board with this. We've got a mess of sterile tubes around here at Reed, so that's no biggy for me

I totally understand going home and crashing, I was beat myself. I went with Joe and checked out a two local tanks of which both impressed me. I love seeing how other people set up and maintain their aquaria I'll be back out for the fall swap so hopefully we can connect then. I may even be coming out sooner then that and if I do I'll let you know for sure

I just want to thank you now in public for conducting this testing. It's not it minor deal IMO, in fact, I think this can and will have huge impacts on future reefing

 

[daisy]

Shaun, when I visit Ithaca, I can get all i want of anything - here I have access to nothing but ideas... *sigh*

I can't even get a decent syringe for attempting to wipe out the aptasia :anger2:

 

[jackson6745]

Shaun, you've got me curious on the NSW. As you know, I have pretty easy access to the ocean. I may have to do some testing and maybe some SMALL NSW WC's to see what happens. My corals are brave and have been through worse