Ich immunity

[Paul B]

It has always interested me why some tanks are plagued with ich and others seem immune. Most of us know all about the Ich life cycle but I believe we are missing something. Many of us have tanks where we know ich is happily living but causing no harm while other tanks just can't seem to keep anything alive. I know when my tank was new I was one of those people who had to keep copper in there continousely. Now my fish, including so called "Ich Magnet" hippo tangs are immune. My theory is that very healthy fish in breeding condition rarely get ich although I don't know why. Ich is a paracite and not a "real" disease. It is not internal, not a bacteria or virus so our fishes immune systems should not be able to launch a defense. but somehow it does. To me it seems it would be like being immune from gun shots.
I know there are theories about an immunity or partial immunity but I really don't see how that is possable.
I know that either my tank conditions or "immunity" if you will repels ich infections but I also know that ich is alive and doing well in my tank.
I have many times introduced fish with ich into my tank and the fish will either die or get cured but never will it affect other fish. I wrote about this before and I bring it up again because last week I bought a Shark Nosed Gobi, that seemed healthy so introduced it into my tank. I do not quarantine and have not in many years (my tank is wierd so you should always quarantine)
After a few days I noticed that gobi was full of ich to the point that I knew it would be dead in the morning. I caught it and cured it with copper in another tank. None of the other fish have ich and I know from experience that they will not get it. The other six or so shark nosed gobies in the LFS from the same shipment died in the store.
Does this happen to anyone else? I personally thing it is either a tank condition or a general health factor.
Anyway it is something that I think about and it bothers me that I don't yet know the answer.
Take care.
Paul

 

[ShaunW]

What you describe has happened to me.

My fish are all older than 5 years, some are 10 years old. In the beginning I did have ich, but I didn't do anything for it. The infection resolved itself, it did come back sometimes in the beginning, but now I have not seen any ich in my tank for at least 5 years.

I think people over react to ich infections. The treatments are sometimes worst than the disease. Also some individual fish are just more susceptible genetically IMO.

I do agree with your "breeding condition" theory. Mature fish are much more resistant to many stresses.

 

[juan319]

Paul, even thought I am new to saltwater, I read one of your articles on black worms, after that moment I read all of your articles. Your articles are very educational and informative.
The same thing (ick) happend to me after purchasing two fishes, my entire tank got contaminated. As of right now I am starting again to buy and add fishes to the tank, and I try to feed them black worms on a regular basis.

 

[Sean]

From my experience Ive also noticed that at wholesalers and such they just get a "bad shipment". I've alway assumed it had to do with the way they were caught and/or shipped. I've seen it with everything from damsels to hippo tangs. A stress, weak and starved fish as we know are more susceptible to having "ick". It kind of makes sense, at least to me. Who knows if it's fact but it's what I assume.

 

[Sean]

As a note being friends with some wholesalers I know they give "deals", discounts and lot pricing on these fish just to get rid of them before they die.

 

[NYreefNoob]

my clowns i have had for a few months now have had ich from the start of going into my tank.{still have out breaks of it} i do feed regularly with garlic. and thank goodness for my 2 cleaner shrimp. none of my other fish ever got it. knock on wood. i think keeping them feed and healthy will fight it off more than anything. seen guys lower salinity and have ich back a few months later. dont think there is a cure forever on it just a temp fix.

 

[JLAudio]

Paul, I have also noticed this in my past reef tank. Originally I never used a qt and only started after a goldrim got real bad ich. I knew there was ich present in by tank because new tangs that were QT'd 6 weeks would be introduced and get ich from my tank indicating ich present in tank, but yet somehow all the fish in my tank for years tangs including hippo's, yellow tangs, dwarf angels never ever showed a spot. Could there be an immunity?

 

[Bikinisalt]

I think when there is an ick outbreak in someones tank, people tend to panic and start putting stuff in there tanks that they should not be doing. I used to do it. I think I have killed off more fish trying to do the copper thing, add treatments, do the hypo salinity thing. Now if I get a ick outbreak on one or two fish and all the others are okay, eating, swiming around and have there colors, I leave things alone, raise the temp to 90 or even 95 and within a few days all is okay.

One other thing I want to add is; Most people that have a QT tank are either to small or not biologically stable and this IMO will not work. It is just going to create stress on the fish and eventually lead to problems. When I get a new fish, I do QT the fish in a 55G tank that is almost set up like a display, fully running with a few pieces of LR, LS, wet/dry and skimmer. This tank runs 24/7 fish or not. Once I feel the fish is okay then I put it in a tank that is running off the main display tank that has no fish in it so the fish can get use to the water conditions without it getting attacked by other fish. I do this because I like large angels and I know that the possibilty of them fighting and becoming stressed out can lead to a ick outbreak.

Can fish get immuned as they get older? IMO, Yes they can.Do I think ick lives in a tank even if the fish are not infected? IMO, Yes I do, I feel as long as there is LR and LS we will always have ick in our tanks. When I disturb something like moving some rocks around or a major water change, there have been times that I wake up the next morning and my Hippo tangs are covered with ick and my Salifin Tang has little black spots, but all my other fish are okay and once I increased the water temp, it goes away in a few.

 

[JasonE]

I equate Ick to fleas on a dog. A healthy and happy fish will have no problem, its only stressed and unhealthy fish that get it. Actually I think that applies to corals as well. I think acros can easily handle red bugs and AEFW if they are healthy, but succumb if they are not.
And I agree, that new tanks often get ick, if the system is not "cured" the fish will be stressed....
Personally, I'm not a fan of QT. I think it stresses fish out waaay to much.

 

[pecan2phat]

I've always felt that it is the secondary bacterial infection that digs the knife all the way in.

 

[prattreef]

Well established fish populations (I mean years- and most people responding in agreement here are VERY experienced with long-standing stable systems), do seem to be able to avoid outbreaks even when new specimens are introduced with minor infections. I have noticed that unless there is stress in the system ( poor water quality, temp swings, poor nutrition, over aggression etc.) existing populations rarely develop symptoms, and if they do, they are minor and disappear quite readily on their own. Stress IMO is the key factor.

As a rather depressing personal example, I recently added a wonderful C.ulietensis Butterfly to my 10+ year old reef to help with a long-standing and out of control Aiptasia problem. The fish arrived in good shape, but had a few spots. Normally, I don't worry about this as the fish population has proven bullet proof over the years under these circumstances. As expected, the old fish remained unaffected and the new Butterfly was recovering nicely. Then, I made the mistake of breaking down the system for a much needed all in 1 day redesign. It needed to be done and the corals are much better off for it, BUT all the fish within 48hrs. came down with a seriously bad case of parasites and I lost most of them, some 13+ years in my care.

The point is, it was the stress and destabilization of the system that caused the problem. If I had left the system alone for another month or so, I am quite sure this would not have occurred.

What I currently find more useful than full blown QT is the use of an in-tank acclimation box, that allows new specimens to get used to their new surroundings and water quality, enables you to ensure they get food and are feeding well without competition, and helps ward off potential aggression from established tank mates by allowing them to get used to the newcomer without being able to physically get to them. This strategy also enables you to easily remove a new fish if the need for whatever reason arises.

 

[marrone]

Do fish gain immunity to ich over time or do they just live with it, as they do in the ocean with all other kind of parasites, which they're usually infected with? Well some fish are immune to ich but almost all fish can and do get it, even eels. What is happening is that the fish is kept in a very stable system, well feed and for the most part not being harassed or beaten up by the other fish eventually are healthily enough to live with the ich. What you will notice is with the same fish, that seem to be immune to ich, when the conditions all of a sudden change for the worst, big temperature swings or bad water condition, you could see an outbreak of ich ehappening. If the conditions are corrected some healthy fish can fight off the ich others succumb to it. Newly introduced fish are usually either not healthy enough, or stressed out, to be able to fight off the ich right away. If the conditions are good enough, water quality and fish being fed very well, they maybe able to fight off the ich, most don't and usually die from it without treatment.


And don't fool yourselves, many more fish dying from not treating ich than do from leaving it untreated. Not to mention that there are variation of ich, that even treating using high levels of copper, that can't be killed and result in wiping out your whole tank. Also when you're treating, whether it's copper, Hypo or something else you need to make sure you start right away and treat correct, which is the correct dosage and right amount of time. Failures usually are from people not treating right away or thinking that the fish is cured and stopping the treatment.

And yes Warren is correct a secondary bacterial infection, which can come about from scratching, is very hard to cure and usually leads to fish dying fairly quickly as opposed to ich which most of the time can take a while.

QT is to protect the fish in your main tank and not just the fish that you're QTing. And yes most QT are usually too small but there is no reason for a small one not work, unless you over feed or don't watch the water quality. As for being overly stress in a QT, well every fish in our tanks are stressed out to some extent, even in the largest tank.

I QT all my fish and the last time I had ich in one of my tanks was about 5 years ago. I placed a fish, which I got from someone tank right, straight into one of my tanks. All the fish in the tank broke out with ich, which I cured using copper resulting in no loses.

 

[Paul B]

Thanks everyone for the responses. The last time I started a thread like this I received a few E Mails stating that I may be indicating to Noobs that they should not quarantine their fish. That is not the case. In a new tank ich is very prevelent and probably will kill all the fish in a few days. This is a discussion about the not quite so understood aspects of ich.

Juan, thank you. If you feed black worms (as I think you should) do not make them the main course or some of your fish will eat nothing else. Feed them something else first then give some worms.

Bikini, I agree with you. Most quarantine tanks are much too small and bare.
I myself now have a gobi in a bare plastic container which I know I should not do.
We talk a lot about stress but I am not sure if everyone knows what stress is. In humans it is job problems, teenager problems, money problems etc. but fish have larger concerns. Most of their "concerns" (for lack of a better word) have to do with dying. Tangs or so called "Ich Magnets" are always stressed because they are schooling fish and will always be schooling fish. Two or three fish will not make a fish feel safe. A school of tangs could be hundreds or thousands of fish.
They live in a school because they are genetically programmed to live that way and they know that swimming without a school means certain death.
Thats why a hippo tang hides whenever we put out hands in the tank or turn on the light.
They also "know" that they are encased or enslaved. All schooling fish roam wide areas of the reef looking for the slightest trace of algae to feed on. (yes all reefs grow algae) We feed our fish once or twice a day but for the rest of the day our fish can't find food and they can't swim more than a few feet in either direction to look for it. That causes stress just as it would in a Prisoner of war.
I of course do not mean to imply that fish suffering is worse than being a POW
(I was in a war) but to a fish it is similar.
Another thing that causes stress is water depth. Very few adult fish live in water as shallow as our tanks. They have a built in sense that it is not safe there. In the sea there are birds and crabs that prey on shallow water fish. Fish know what depth water thay are in. Fish like Royal Grammas are deep water fish. I have seen many of them deeper than 120'. They live there because they were made to adjust to that water depth.
Fish do two things, eat and mate. We are providing them food, although not the food they are used to eating and not in a way they are used to eating it, but fish in our tanks are usually lacking a mate or lacking a choice of mates. This is a big problem for fish (as it could be for us)
All of a fishes time is spent either eating or looking for a mate.
We can take a pill and go watch TV but fish are not so flexible. If we succeed in alleviating some of these situations as best we can it will go a long way towards keeping our fish healthy. They may never be as healthy as they were in the sea although we may think so, but we should strive to give them swimming room, identifyable food, and as few antagonistic room mates as posssable.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[JLAudio]

Wow paul, very insightful yet depressing.

 

[Bikinisalt]

I agree with you Paul on the depth and that most tanks are to shallow. Ever since I decided to due away with glass tanks and been converting over to acrylic tanks, I have ordered them to be 30" in height. I have notice the fish are more stress free and feel more at ease. It might sound crazy, but my fishes colors and the way they swim about makes me wonder if that is one problem that we face when keeping fish that come from deeper waters...

 

[fritz]

I've always wondered if it was due to the coating on the fish. A mature and very healthy fish should have a nice coating over them that perhaps the ich isn't able to penetrate, or not easily penetrate. A stressed and or weakened fish would not have this coating or at least less of it making it perhaps more susceptible to infection by the parasite and secondary infections. I always figured that was why established fish were never effected by low exposure to ich.

 

[marrone]

I've always wondered if it was due to the coating on the fish. A mature and very healthy fish should have a nice coating over them that perhaps the ich isn't able to penetrate, or not easily penetrate. A stressed and or weakened fish would not have this coating or at least less of it making it perhaps more susceptible to infection by the parasite and secondary infections. I always figured that was why established fish were never effected by low exposure to ich.

The problem with this is that ich is usually taking in by the mouth, gills and eyes, and then works it way though the fish body. If the fish has a very thick coating the ich mayn't be able to break out, and start the cycle over again. But Eels also get ich and if you ever have picked one up you'll notice they have a very thick coating on their bodies.

 

[marrone]

I agree with you Paul on the depth and that most tanks are to shallow. Ever since I decided to due away with glass tanks and been converting over to acrylic tanks, I have ordered them to be 30" in height. I have notice the fish are more stress free and feel more at ease. It might sound crazy, but my fishes colors and the way they swim about makes me wonder if that is one problem that we face when keeping fish that come from deeper waters...

It's not only dept but size also size of the tank, the bigger the better. Larger tanks usually let you have better water quailty and better conditions in general, not to mention most people over stock their tanks to begin with. My tanks are 36" high and because of the additional height they give the fish move room to swimming but more important when one fish is spooked toward the top of the tank, and darts, it doesn't spook the rest of the fish.

 

[Deanos]

I agree with you Paul on the depth and that most tanks are to shallow. Ever since I decided to due away with glass tanks and been converting over to acrylic tanks, I have ordered them to be 30" in height. I have notice the fish are more stress free and feel more at ease. It might sound crazy, but my fishes colors and the way they swim about makes me wonder if that is one problem that we face when keeping fish that come from deeper waters...

While I also agree about the depth issues, I'd be surprised if Paul thought a 30" tank would help alleviate stress. That's merely 6" deeper than a standard 120g tank...not even waist deep for many people at a beach. In his post, he mentions finding royal grammas at 120 feet. 6 inches more isn't going to make an RG feel any better.

:bump:

 

[Bikinisalt]

While I also agree about the depth issues, I'd be surprised if Paul thought a 30" tank would help alleviate stress. That's merely 6" deeper than a standard 120g tank...not even waist deep for many people at a beach. In his post, he mentions finding royal grammas at 120 feet. 6 inches more isn't going to make an RG feel any better.

:bump:

I am talking about my personal experience. I feel that the extra 6" of depth has helped in someway. Like Marrone said, when a fish darts it does not spook the other fish.

Any of our tanks that we keep in an apartment or house is always going to be to shallow for any fish we can maintain. The average tank is maybe 24" in height and the bigger the tank the better but unfortunately it is impossible to have a tank that can adequately manitain any fish from the ocean unless we took a spare bedroom and made a tank out of it and even then that still is not sufficient, but it would be nice:knockedou.