- Location
- Flushing, NY
Did a quick search..
so according to that, when calcium precipitates because it is over 500ppm, you have the ability to skim it out.
I still don't know where you're getting your data reefkprZ.. why don't you give a link?
Over Skimming
- Thread starter NYreefNoob
- Start date
Did a quick search..
so according to that, when calcium precipitates because it is over 500ppm, you have the ability to skim it out.
I still don't know where you're getting your data reefkprZ.. why don't you give a link?
(Ronald L Shimek)
In other words, removal of one pound of skimmer sludge, would remove 17/78.4 or about 21.7 percent of the calcium in the sea water of the tank. Skimming enough to build up skimmer sludge can be a major way to remove calcium from a tank
(wikipedia)
Protein skimming removes certain organic compounds, including proteins and amino acids, by using the polarity of the protein itself. Due to their intrinsic charge, water-borne proteins are either repelled or attracted by the air/water interface and these molecules can be described as hydrophobic (such as fats or oils) or hydrophilic (such as salt, sugar, ammonia, most amino acids, and most inorganic compounds).
there are tons of other sources hundreds online Dig around a bit, and some I am afraid I cant link to as they are in Books found in the library.
notice in the wikipedia quote it mentions the amino acids you talked about, I am sorry to say Nowhere in any research I have found does it state amino acids must be present in the water for a foam fractionator to function. most just state that skimmers will remove aminos, not that they are a must have for the unit to skim. I think you may be misunderstanding the information provided in the things you are reading.
just about everything about the function of a skimmer is based on the polarity of the protiens or other elements in question.
maybe you could show the source of your information, that states everything has to be amino acids or covered in amino acids to be skimmed?
In other words, removal of one pound of skimmer sludge, would remove 17/78.4 or about 21.7 percent of the calcium in the sea water of the tank. Skimming enough to build up skimmer sludge can be a major way to remove calcium from a tank
(wikipedia)
Protein skimming removes certain organic compounds, including proteins and amino acids, by using the polarity of the protein itself. Due to their intrinsic charge, water-borne proteins are either repelled or attracted by the air/water interface and these molecules can be described as hydrophobic (such as fats or oils) or hydrophilic (such as salt, sugar, ammonia, most amino acids, and most inorganic compounds).
there are tons of other sources hundreds online Dig around a bit, and some I am afraid I cant link to as they are in Books found in the library.
notice in the wikipedia quote it mentions the amino acids you talked about, I am sorry to say Nowhere in any research I have found does it state amino acids must be present in the water for a foam fractionator to function. most just state that skimmers will remove aminos, not that they are a must have for the unit to skim. I think you may be misunderstanding the information provided in the things you are reading.
just about everything about the function of a skimmer is based on the polarity of the protiens or other elements in question.
maybe you could show the source of your information, that states everything has to be amino acids or covered in amino acids to be skimmed?
geez Ron Shimek? all credibility just flew out the window when you cited him. The guy has been reaching, grasping at straws coming up with B.S. trying to support his deep sand bed no skimmer method for years now. I don't consider anything from Shimek, Wikipedia, or Borneman scientific data.
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- Location
- Flushing, NY
Its called a Protein Skimmer for a reason. Proteins are made up of multiple chains of Amino Acids. Otherwise they would call it an Element Skimmer.
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
Next time you directly quote another author please use attributes!!!!! Dr. Bingman would not be happy
- Location
- poughquag, ny
listen all's i really wanted to know was and if it is possbile to over skim, and basically got my answer, by over skimming i meant removal of all nutrient's amino's ect, not calcium, and basically you can over skim if you are not adding enough nutrients back into the system, if the skimmer is way over rated for water volume it would just do it quicker. not concerned about trace elements as they are replaced weekly with water change's. 2 fish in a larger system and not being over fed would eventually lead to not enough nutrients left in water for corals to feed off,
Next time you directly quote another author please use attributes!!!!! Dr. Bingman would not be happy
[M][R] Description of a Novel Skimmer Design (Long)
by cb77-at-inibara.cc.columbia.edu (Craig Bingman) (20 Feb 1995)
here's your attribute
- Location
- poughquag, ny
he don't live far from me. the owner of etss about 1\2, really thought of going back to one of them, other than noise of them
Mathematical Model of a Foam Fractionator Used in Aquaculture
The foam enrichment process occurs as bubbles travel from the bottom of a fractionator column to the top of the water column. Factors affecting bubble enrichment include several operating or design parameters under operator control or influence, e.g, water pH, gas bubble size, airflow rates, and fractionator geometry. Predictive relationships were developed to describe these effects and are considered generally applicable to predict the foam enrichment process. Predicting the actual operation of a specific foam fractionator requires additional mathematical expressions to model the foam collection process and removal from the top of the water column.
----------------------------------------------------------------
An integrated photobioreactor and foam fractionation unit for the growth and harvest of Chaetoceros spp. in open systems
Andrew Csordas
, 
, a and Jaw-Kai Wang
Abstract
The separation of cells from large volume cultures by centrifugation is a costly and time-consuming process that has prompted the exploration of alternative propitious separation strategies. Foam fractionation is a technique that can be used to concentrate large cell culture volumes, significantly decreasing centrifugation time requirements. A foam fractionation system is relatively inexpensive and easy to maintain. This study was aimed at empirically determining optimal levels of the major factors influencing foam fractionation of the marine diatom Chaetoceros spp. in a pilot scale, open culture, integrated photobioreactor and foam fractionation unit.
The experimental system consisted of eight 220 l fiberglass photobioreactors that served as growth chambers and foam fractionating units. Bubble size, air flow rate (AFR), cell density (CD), overflow height (OH), pH and foam fractionation run time (RT) were factors investigated while harvesting the outdoor open cultures. Flocculating agents and surfactants were not added to the diatom cultures at any time. Experiments were conducted to determine how variable levels influence dry weight yield, harvesting efficiency (HE) and foam volume collected. Experimentally determined setpoints resulted in harvesting efficiencies exceeding 90% while extracting less than 12% of the total culture volume in a period of 30 min. These results indicate that foam fractionation is a practical tool for harvesting Chaetoceros spp. diatoms.
------------------------------------------------------
Rintu Banerjee1, Rajeev Agnihotri1 and B. C. Bhattacharyya1
(1) Biotechnology unit Department of Chemical Engineering, Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur, 721302 Kharagpur, India
Received: 26 November 1992
Abstract Studies on the cost effective purification method is very much essential for the industrially important enzyme like protease. As foam fractionation is an important technique in downstream processing of the biologicals, purification of the crude proteolytic enzyme produced by Rhizopus oryzae has been attempted using converging-diverging foam fractionator. The effects of different parameters studied on the purification efficiency by foam fractionation were pH of the broth, air flow rate, initial liquid height. The results obtained were found quite encouraging at pH 10 with 1 LPM of air flow rate at low initial liquid height.
-----------------------------------------------------------
By J. Charles Delbeek
Foam Fractionation
A method of chemical filtration that has been available for decades but only recently has become popular is foam fractionation (protein skimming). A foam fractionator consists of a column through which a very fine mixture of air and water is pumped. If you have spent any time along an ocean shore, you may have noticed varying amounts of foam. This foam is produced by the action of the waves, which combines air, water and certain polar organics to form a stable foam. A foam fractionator works in a similar manner. If the foam is collected, proteins and other organics can removed from the water before they are mineralized into nitrogen-containing compounds and other toxins. As a result, the quality of the tank water is improved and is easier to maintain.
Of the various chemical filtration methods available, only foam fractionation completely removes most organics before they begin to break down (Moe, 1989). The list of substances removed by fractionation includes amino acids, proteins, metals such as copper and zinc complexed with the proteins, fats, carbohydrates, phosphate, iodine, fatty acids and phenols. A more detailed discussion of foam fractionators, including their operation and construction, will appear in a future issue of AFI.
- M. B. Timmons11Corresponding author.11Department of Agricultural and Biological Engineering, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 USA,
- S. Chen22Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70803–6405 USA,
- N. C. Weeks33Stearns and Wheler Environmental Engineers, Cazenovia. New York 13035 USA
- 1Department of Agricultural and Biological Engineering, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 USA 2Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70803–6405 USA 3Stearns and Wheler Environmental Engineers, Cazenovia. New York 13035 USA
The foam enrichment process occurs as bubbles travel from the bottom of a fractionator column to the top of the water column. Factors affecting bubble enrichment include several operating or design parameters under operator control or influence, e.g, water pH, gas bubble size, airflow rates, and fractionator geometry. Predictive relationships were developed to describe these effects and are considered generally applicable to predict the foam enrichment process. Predicting the actual operation of a specific foam fractionator requires additional mathematical expressions to model the foam collection process and removal from the top of the water column.
----------------------------------------------------------------
An integrated photobioreactor and foam fractionation unit for the growth and harvest of Chaetoceros spp. in open systems
Andrew Csordas
, , a and Jaw-Kai WangAbstract
The separation of cells from large volume cultures by centrifugation is a costly and time-consuming process that has prompted the exploration of alternative propitious separation strategies. Foam fractionation is a technique that can be used to concentrate large cell culture volumes, significantly decreasing centrifugation time requirements. A foam fractionation system is relatively inexpensive and easy to maintain. This study was aimed at empirically determining optimal levels of the major factors influencing foam fractionation of the marine diatom Chaetoceros spp. in a pilot scale, open culture, integrated photobioreactor and foam fractionation unit.
The experimental system consisted of eight 220 l fiberglass photobioreactors that served as growth chambers and foam fractionating units. Bubble size, air flow rate (AFR), cell density (CD), overflow height (OH), pH and foam fractionation run time (RT) were factors investigated while harvesting the outdoor open cultures. Flocculating agents and surfactants were not added to the diatom cultures at any time. Experiments were conducted to determine how variable levels influence dry weight yield, harvesting efficiency (HE) and foam volume collected. Experimentally determined setpoints resulted in harvesting efficiencies exceeding 90% while extracting less than 12% of the total culture volume in a period of 30 min. These results indicate that foam fractionation is a practical tool for harvesting Chaetoceros spp. diatoms.
------------------------------------------------------
Rintu Banerjee1, Rajeev Agnihotri1 and B. C. Bhattacharyya1
(1) Biotechnology unit Department of Chemical Engineering, Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur, 721302 Kharagpur, India
Received: 26 November 1992
Abstract Studies on the cost effective purification method is very much essential for the industrially important enzyme like protease. As foam fractionation is an important technique in downstream processing of the biologicals, purification of the crude proteolytic enzyme produced by Rhizopus oryzae has been attempted using converging-diverging foam fractionator. The effects of different parameters studied on the purification efficiency by foam fractionation were pH of the broth, air flow rate, initial liquid height. The results obtained were found quite encouraging at pH 10 with 1 LPM of air flow rate at low initial liquid height.
-----------------------------------------------------------
By J. Charles Delbeek
Foam Fractionation
A method of chemical filtration that has been available for decades but only recently has become popular is foam fractionation (protein skimming). A foam fractionator consists of a column through which a very fine mixture of air and water is pumped. If you have spent any time along an ocean shore, you may have noticed varying amounts of foam. This foam is produced by the action of the waves, which combines air, water and certain polar organics to form a stable foam. A foam fractionator works in a similar manner. If the foam is collected, proteins and other organics can removed from the water before they are mineralized into nitrogen-containing compounds and other toxins. As a result, the quality of the tank water is improved and is easier to maintain.
Of the various chemical filtration methods available, only foam fractionation completely removes most organics before they begin to break down (Moe, 1989). The list of substances removed by fractionation includes amino acids, proteins, metals such as copper and zinc complexed with the proteins, fats, carbohydrates, phosphate, iodine, fatty acids and phenols. A more detailed discussion of foam fractionators, including their operation and construction, will appear in a future issue of AFI.
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this information is everywhere, there are many things removed by fractionators.
true they are best at removing protiens and other organics... thats the intended function. but thats not all they do.. thats my point. google and read you'll find many sources of information. yes there is much
"myth-information" out there too. go to the library and research the origins of foam fractionation. there are books of information on water purification before it became popular in marine aquatics.
I must say before you go trying to discredit some one have the ability to show contrary results to enforce it saying "I dont believe him" only shows one thing.... No proof on your part, at least the other party tried to provide statistics. feel free to provide statistics to disprove those theories and numbers.
true they are best at removing protiens and other organics... thats the intended function. but thats not all they do.. thats my point. google and read you'll find many sources of information. yes there is much
"myth-information" out there too. go to the library and research the origins of foam fractionation. there are books of information on water purification before it became popular in marine aquatics.
I must say before you go trying to discredit some one have the ability to show contrary results to enforce it saying "I dont believe him" only shows one thing.... No proof on your part, at least the other party tried to provide statistics. feel free to provide statistics to disprove those theories and numbers.
- Location
- Flushing, NY
Do you realize calcium and metals is not organics?
You can indirectly conclude that protein skimmers removes amino acids and proteins out of the water, and the metals and calcium are byproducts.
Based on that
this has been falsified.
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I agree, unfortunatly, at this point I cant do it, as I dont think the other readers would take my results seriously.as they would see me as a biased source, and I dont blame them. if I were on the other side of the fence and someone stated an opposing view, then starting spouting test results I would also consider it a biased view and semi-disregard their results.
WTF?? how can you falsify an opinion???????
my opinion is
a skimmer will pull calcium and other nutrients from a fresh batch of water, even lacking other organic pollutants. the overall accumulation will definatly be lower due to lack of other things to "skim" but it will still "skim"
the only way that can be falsified is if I dont really think its true......
you may mean to say "this has been disproven"
which I dont think it has,
one quote that shows a little support for the "only organics" theory, and your sold on it, while there is a bunch showing results for both organics and minerals, you say cant be true because.... why?
- Location
- Flushing, NY
You were stating it as a fact before. But if that is your opinion, then yes, it has been disproven
I have only read it combines through polarity of organics, and never otherwise, so yes, I think it has been disproven.
I don't doubt that some minerals get removed, by only through as a byproduct, as stated earlier, if you have a fresh batch of saltwater, with no organics, it won't skim.
Since you like wiki so much..
And look, corals use calcium for their bones too!http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_calcium_organic said:
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