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Paul B

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My new copperband died this morning as I assumed he would. I only had him a few days. He was not a good specimen to start with. I knew that but I got him cheap because he had some fungus on his mouth and I could see that he had some skin discoloration that comes with internal injuries. I was curious as to what his internal injuries were so I disected him. As I suspected the fish had internal injuries. A large area towards the rear and top was filled with blood.
Normally this area is white and just mussle. I am surprised he lived that long.
He probably received this injury when he was collected as this is common with very flat fish and comes from crushing either by a net or being squashed in a shipping bag.
He ate but not great. I knew he had problems but rarely this will clear up on it's own. Copperbands are delicate fish even in good condition.
His gills were clear, he had no more fungus and the rest of his organs looked normal. Unfortunately
he would have died no matter what was done.
It is what it is and it happens. :irked:

They are a great fish. In this picture taken yesterday you can see two injury places, one below the black spot on his lateral line just to the left of the yellow bar and one to the left of the spot.
I say this when I got him and figured he would not last long.
Custo015.jpg
 
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NJMcGruff

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The main problem is just about every fish store has some type of parasites. No matter what wild caught fish have them. Even if they dont show they are sick. many people dont quarantine the right way also. not saying you killed the fish. When you QT fish should be treated for everything even if no sign of being sick is shown. I've had good luck buying pre quarantined fish from a verndor on another board
 
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Paul B

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I have had many copperbands and I knew this one had problems when I got it. I got him cheap as the store owner and I knew it did not have long to live. I could see the injury through the skin.
I also disected his gills and he did not have any paracites.
many people dont quarantine the right way also. not saying you killed the fish. When you QT fish should be treated for everything even if no sign of being sick is shown. I've had good luck buying pre quarantined fish from a verndor on another board

The tank is 40 years old and I do not have to quarantine but most people should. If I don't know what I am doing by now, I should give up. :tongue1:
 

Paul B

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BUT, if you don't learn how to pick a healthy fish, you won't last long, in this hobby!

Yes I should get out of the hobby now.
I will get a healthy copperband probably today but I learn more from a sick one and I find it interesting to learn the problem with it. I have had many copperbands for many years, I even dove with them a few times, not much more to learn about healhty ones, but fish with problems are interesting because I could try to learn the problem it is having. I get sick fish all the time usually for cheap or free just so I can have the opportunity to experiment. If I never had a sick fish, I would never know how to cure anything.
Anyone can keep a healthy fish alive, that is not a great challenge and after over 50 years of fish keeping I don't have much of a problem with that, but I am here to learn and I do that by experimenting. I checked out his gills under a microscope and his stomack along with his liver, the only problem I could find was his internal bleeding which I am fairly sure came about when he was collected. He could have been injected by a diver who collected him so he could bring him to the surface quickly, but that ususally is not the best thing for the fish especially skinny fish like copperbands. :shhh:
 

jaa1456

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The tank is 40 years old and I do not have to quarantine but most people should. If I don't know what I am doing by now, I should give up. :tongue1:[/QUOTE]Lets get one thing clear, Your actual fish tank is 40 years old, not the actual set up you have now. You know this tank has been broken down and everything in it has been switched out a few times. But I would not buy any more fish as of right now for that tank, You just had a sick fish in there so you know the parasites are still in the system. Why buy any more fish sick or healthy if they are going into a tank with parasites and no attempt to cure them. Not saying you have to leave the hobby as you mentioned, but lets be realistic about things here.
 

NJMcGruff

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I do not have to quarantine but most people should. :tongue1:
now thats some bad advice to give people. Your fish went threw tons of stress being sick then thrown into a new system. it happens. sometimes its better to just say no then to buy it.

This is from Dr that QTS fish.

"Tank-raised fish have a much higher survival rate (than wild-caught fish) during my 5-week quarantine procedure (approx. 95% survival) and I have never seen parasites in ORA fish! In contrast, wild-caught fish can have as low as a 50% survival rate and almost every shipment has some fish with parasites. (For these reasons, tank-raised fish are relatively inexpensive)."

Fish stores that sell ORA fish and wild caught have them on the same system (that ive seen). So it kinda kills the fact that they didnt have anything before hand.
 
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cowfish

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When you QT fish should be treated for everything even if no sign of being sick is shown.

I've always been under the impression that you should NOT medicate fish unless they were showing signs of illness. Especially with meds like copper or furan as these are toxic to the fish as well as the disease you're trying to treat (which may not even be there in the first place).
 

NJMcGruff

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Just because a fish does'nt show it doesnt mean something is'nt there. Could be immune to the disease,then it goes into your tank affects your other fish differently.......

Here is a copy of what is done to the fish.This is from a local vet that does this. I dont in anyway take credit for this. i'm just trying to share information


Treating fish in quarantine is as much an art as a science, and therefore, there is no one "cook-book" set of instructions as how to do this. I will explain a typical protocol that I use, but keep in mind that there are occasions when I might vary the technique, determined by many variables. (For example, if I get a shipment of tank-raised fish from ORA, I may reduce the dosage and length of time for each drug. (It is very unlikely that these fish will be carrying parasites, but you never know. ORA does introduce wild-caught fish into their breeding program from time-to-time. But still, the overall length of the quarantine/observation period will still be 4-5 weeks.)

When I was treating fish in the past, as a hobbiest (i.e. treating a small number of fish, infrequently), I found the biggest problem was keeping a biological filter active. It is beyond the scope of this thread to explain this in detail, but please keep this in mind, and consider testing for at least nitrites (and possibly ammonia) on a daily basis.

DISCLAIMERS: I don't profess to be an expert in the use of any of the drugs or protocol that I am presenting. My system is the result of a lot of research and trial-and-error over the past 40+ years. My purpose for this thread is to simply present to others my methods, which work very well for me, rather than to recommend that others use this technique. As with the use of any drug, undesirable effects can result, including death. I use 30 gal, bare-bottom tanks with PVC pipe pieces for hiding places. A stand pipe skims water from the surface to a 15 gal sump, 2/3 filled with mini bio-balls. (A float valve is used for RO/DI water evaporation replacement). Tanks are maintained in a dimly lighted room. Each tank has a UV sterilizer.



PROTOCOL

Upon arrival of a shipment of fish, I acclimate them for about 2-3 hours with no dips or drugs. I like to leave them in quarantine tanks with no treatment for a few days until I see fish eating. (Of course, if I detect any parasites, visually or via necropsy/microscopic exam, I will start the proper medicine immediately).

1. CHLOROQUINE PHOSPHATE 250 MG TABLETS (This drug is for protozoa; I suspect it is good for internal as well as external protozoan parasites). One tablet per 10 gallons (generally, one dosing). A 20% water change is made after the first week, and again after the second week. At end of 3d week, a 50% water change followed by carbon and Polyfilter in sump for 3-4 days. During the 3-week period, I generally do NOT add more drug at each water change, UNLESS I know a fish has protozoa. I'm sure there might be some controversy with the use of this drug. Some say it only causes the parasite to fall off fish. I don't know for sure, and I don't know if it is good for ALL protozoa, but IME it seems to kill them all.

2. PRAZIQUANTEL I use PraziPro (Hikari) at a dosage of 2.5 ml per 10 gallons, one time for 5 days. Then, a 50% water change; and, carbon/Polyfilter. This drug kills trematodes (flatworms) and tapeworms. It is a wonderful drug and am I glad to see it on the market! Years ago we only had a dog/cat tapeworm medicine (Droncit) that cost about $5 to treat 1 quart!! (Sea World had to treat a large tank for trematodes with Droncit which cost them over $250,000!!)

3. LEVAMISOLE (powder) I mix this powder into my gel-food formulation that I make for my fish, at the rate of 4 grams per Kg (2.2 lbs) of food. (This can be scaled down, e.g. 400mg/100 gm food. This is fed once a week for 3 weeks, DURING the last 3 weeks of quarantine. This medicine is for intestinal roundworms of various types. (There was a time, especially when I stocked my 500 gal tank, when I use to collect feces from individual fish for microscopic examination. You would be surprised at how often I would find various types of intestinal parasites. They are like worms in dogs and cats....best to get rid of them...the fish have enough stress in their lives!

On rare occassions, I will treat with an organophosphate (for arthropods, usually isopods) but only if I find some on a live or dead fish. One should suspect isopods if you see fish gasping (although there are other causes for this). A freshwater dip for 3 minutes usually brings instant relief, but of course the tank needs to be treated. With magnification, you can easily see the dead isopods on the bottom of the container used for the dip. (If interested, I can send you a photo of the isopod that I sometimes find...unless I can figure out how to post the photo here!)
smiley.gif


NOTE: Mandarins cannot survive this treatment unless live food is provided. Fortunately, they rarely succumb to parasites. I generally leave them in the quarantine tank with Chloroquine for 24 hours, followed by a 1-hour dip in praziquantel. I then put them in a refugium for a couple of weeks. Once I am sure they are eating and seem OK, I then offer them for sale. (I know I am taking a slight chance by skipping the "usual" treatment, but so far I have never seen parasites on a mandarin after this modified procedure, nor do I have any reason to think they have ever transmitted parasites to other fish.)

Hope this helps.
 
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NYreefNoob

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maybe u guys missed the point of this thread, i highly doubt paul needs to be told how to handle a fish, i don't qt fish myself, but do have a proceedure that i go through before fish go into my tank.
 

Paul B

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QUOTE]Lets get one thing clear, Your actual fish tank is 40 years old, not the actual set up you have now. You know this tank has been broken down and everything in it has been switched out a few times. But I would not buy any more fish as of right now for that tank,[/QUOTE]

No, lets get another thing clear, this tank was broken down, once in about 1976 when I moved all of the gravel, water, rocks and the fish were transfered the same day to a larger tank but since then, 34 years ago, it is the exact same system, it has never crashed, never been emptied and never lost all of the animals at the same time. The original gravel from about 45 years ago is still in there when the tank was started as brackish.
The tank has been featured in two aquarium magazines many years ago and it is still running just fine.
Most of the rocks I collected myself using SCUBA in the 70s.
I don't know where you got your information from.

But I would not buy any more fish as of right now for that tank, You just had a sick fish in there so you know the parasites are still in the system.

The fish had no paracites as I disected it and put his gills under a microscope. But even if it did have paracites, it would not harm my system.
I put animals in there all the time, from stores and the sea. I add NSW, pods, shrimp, seaweed and bacteria from the sea.
The fish did not have a disease, it had an injury probably caused from collection. The disection confirmed that for me.

Why buy any more fish sick or healthy if they are going into a tank with parasites and no attempt to cure them.

There is no reason to cure my fish, some of them have been in there for 18 years and many of the rest of them are spawning.
I have not lost a fish to a "disease" in over 25 years and that includes paracites.
This last copperband did not have a disease and I aquired it knowing it had problems, not because I wanted a cheap fish
, I could afford a healthy fish, but because I figured it would die and I would have an opportunity to learn from it. I had many copperband buterflies and I learned how to care for them by spending time with them in the South Pacific which is how I aquired most of my knowledge about fish, not from rumors or second hand experiences.
I do my own research.

"Tank-raised fish have a much higher survival rate (than wild-caught fish) during my 5-week quarantine procedure (approx. 95% survival) and I have never seen parasites in ORA fish! In contrast, wild-caught fish can have as low as a 50% survival rate and almost every shipment has some fish with parasites. (For these reasons, tank-raised fish are relatively inexpensive)."

I am at a loss at this statement. There are no tank raised copperband butterflies that I am aware of.

now thats some bad advice to give people.
This is in the advanced reef section for a reason. I have been writing a long time and I always say that in a new tank or a Noobs tank, fish and everything else in the tank should be quarantined.
In "my" own tank, I do not have to. If you feel you have to quarantine, then you should. I don't want to go over all of my theories but I feel it is better to have fish immune from diseases and paracites than to worry about everything you add to the tank. My tank is different from many tanks because it was started way before internets and uses natural seawater and other lifestock from the sea.
If after adding animals probably hundreds of times in over 35 years with no diseases I think I can get away with it.
I get my animals in such a condition of health that they do not get paracites or anything else. But that is for a different thread and I have posted it numerous times but "yes" noobs or anyone else with a newer tank and anyone who's fish are not breeding are suseptable to paracites and everything else and they should quarantine.

This is from Dr that QTS fish.
This is from an electrician with the oldest tank on here who has successfully kept fish for almost 60 years.:lol2:

Have a great day, I enjoyed reading your post.
 

marrone

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Sorry, but there isn't a reason to treat a fish during QT, unless the fish shows signs of something, which in a 4-6 week period you will see signs. All the treatments you listed aren't needed, unless the fish actually has the disease/parasite that you're treating for.

There is a very good chance that what you're treating them for they mayn't have, and if they did have some diseases/parasite, what you're using probably wouldn't work against that diseases/parasite. It's very important to pick out good fish at the LFS, which is a good start, and then QT for as long as possible.
 
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Paul B

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MJMcGruff, those medications you listed by the Vet are basically malaria medications, I wrote articles about using them in conjuntion with copper in the 80s.
Your Vet friend may have even read some of them.
They will cure ich as I have used them numerous times in wholesaler and retailer's tanks.

Sorry, but there isn't a reason to treat a fish during QT, unless it shows signs of something,

How are you doing Marrone?
I agree if you are going to quarantine, there is no reason to treat unless there is something you want to treat for.
 

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