Nitrates in an SPS Tank

[jackson6745]

What about phosphate effects on colors and coral health. I notice that many SPS with a green tint indicate a high PO4 level. Ever see a tank with mostly green corals that shouldn't be green

 

[kimoyo]

SPS has a layer of slime which corals uses to host bacteria, basically culturing their own food, the bacteria breaks down the fish defication, noticeably all our defication in a human has bacteria as well, because in our large intestine contains a large amount of cultured symbotic bactera. Fish poop as well has a large amount of bacteria, where it's a substrate to the ones the corals synthsis. What i think is the fish poop contains bilirubin and other groups of iron that feeds the zoox. This bacteria that hosts the fish defication is how considered what to be called "Mum", thus when you blow your rocks, or at a high curculation of water, the bacteria blows around along with unbroken down peptides and bilrubin, therefore corals feed off "Mum". In my own hobbist experience, i've blown off my rocks and the corals will get darker, as well as "seeing" feeder tenticles come out of my corals. they look like threads that float all around stinging and capturing free bacteria to feed off of. that's my theory on what rich does with fish poop.

This is interesting, I have do some reading. Are the feeder tenticles from the polyps? But food caught by polyps contribution a small percentage to overall nutrition of the coral from what I've read.

EDIT: Ldrhawke, puts a lot of bubbles into his tank for a few minutes every few hours, here's a link. He says its to simulate low tide when corals are exposed to air and clean off the corals. Could this be a washing off of that bacteria?

 

[kimoyo]

Prof. Szmant (the teacher of that class) said there isn't much research done on nitrate transport systems in corals and it would be a good area for those with the expertise to contribute.

Spykes, you better get working .

 

[jackson6745]

I am going to buy some discus soon :lol:.

You should see my 3gal eclipse blackfish tank ...smells like a$$ and I love it

 

[kimoyo]

What really confuses me is that different SPS color differently in low or high nutrient environments.
For example
A Humilis, samoensis, and gemmifera are corals that I've kept with best color under "high light" or more importantly in a nutrient starved tank. By nutrient starved I mean a tank with a low bio load and little feeding. From the pics I see on the internet, best colors of these corals are also kept in the same environment
On the other hand I had great success with Poccilipora and stylophora in my present tank where I have a load of fish and feed a lot. Same holds true to tanks that I have seen in person and on the internet. I was actually talking to Dave about this yesterday.

Dude, when you read those articles you'll see that different sps corals behave differently. I think it has to do with the clades of zooxanthellae. There's an article by Dana Riddle (that Deanos posted a link for, lol) that talks about the different types (clades) of zoox. Maybe different zoox species behave differently. Or maybe the nutrient transport systems (done by the coral or maybe even done by the zoox) are different.

What about phosphate effects on colors and coral health. I notice that many SPS with a green tint indicate a high PO4 level. Ever see a tank with mostly green corals that shouldn't be green

Sounds like an increase in chlorophyll pigment (possible growth of zoox). Like Solbby said before its hard to know what nutrient is limiting.

 

[herman]

Rich I just went through your RC Thread Man that got messy. Is there anything that you can deduct from there? Sort of like a summary minus the crap?

 

[jackson6745]

This is interesting, I have do some reading. Are the feeder tenticles from the polyps? But food caught by polyps contribution a small percentage to overall nutrition of the coral from what I've read.

Dave is talking about Mesenterial filaments

 

[prattreef]

Getting back to the Nitrate issue, it is quite confusing, and I don't know that I can offer anything concrete/scientific. I am one of those reefers who tend to run fairly high nitrate levels... not by design, simply because I have a lot of fish and feed them well. There have been times when my systems have started to look shabby and it turned out the nitrate was very high. When I dropped the level down ( water changes, even used AZNO3 a few times... actually works... the system improved. I tend to believe the common wisdom that while Nitrate should be kept as low as possible, it is not nearly as critical as phosphate levels. Having said that, very high levels 30-40 ppm or higher does seem to be problematic for some species. I do think people get too hung up on absolute numbers, and need to get a better sense of the actual needs of their own systems. Because of my particular husbandry practices, lots of fish etc. I do turn to Nitrate as a culprit if things begin to go south. I use Phosban, so phosphate is less likely a problem in my setup. I also use a ton of B-Ionic so the thing I check first is elevated salinity. I think you get the picture... by knowing the likely limitations of my own system/practices and the tendencies of the animals that I keep, I keep a handle on things.

I don't know if this really answers any questions, but I'm not convinced anyone really knows the answers anyway. The exceptions to the seemingly well founded rules are all too common and suggest a complexity of factors we don't really have a handle on yet.

Randy

 

[Deanos]

For those of you who subscribe to Coral Magazine, in the newest issue (Feb/Mar 2006), there's an interview of Dr. Dirk Petersen who hypothesizes that juvenile coral absorb all available zoox and store them. He states, "As the coral colony develops, the type of zoox best adapted to the environmental conditions becomes dominant. Current research suggests that the other types, however, are still present within the host, albeit in minute quantities. If the environmental conditions change in a manner that allows the dominant strain to actually become a liability for the coral, these algae are expelled, although not completely..." He continues, "It is, therefore, conceivable that another type would become dominant and a new and better adapted symbiosis would develop."

 

[spykes]

IMO i was talking about the nitrate corellation to the growth of zoox, and supposely most algae grows tremendous when there are also a elevated amount of iron, the fish poop contributes that due to the expell of bilirubin. It's a factor where all of these situation combines, elevated of inorganic phosphate at a elevated level is a ATP inhibitor, as well as nitrate at a high level with a good amount of iron int he system causes the zoox to grow. But looking at perice's tank, when all of the contributing factors are not all there, corals still pretain to grow, this ATP is still synthsis, and amino as well as iron is synthsis everything still grows. therefore in theory i think nitrate is consumed by the coral only if all the contributing factors are there. That is my theory.

 

[ShaunW]

I also take a practical approach to the hobby but I still try to read every scientific article said to be useful. Only problem is most readings are inconclusive.

What really confuses me is that different SPS color differently in low or high nutrient environments.
For example
A Humilis, samoensis, and gemmifera are corals that I've kept with best color under "high light" or more importantly in a nutrient starved tank. By nutrient starved I mean a tank with a low bio load and little feeding. From the pics I see on the internet, best colors of these corals are also kept in the same environment
On the other hand I had great success with Poccilipora and stylophora in my present tank where I have a load of fish and feed a lot. Same holds true to tanks that I have seen in person and on the internet. I was actually talking to Dave about this yesterday.

So to add to the confusion, categorizing all corals into SPS with the same characteristics will still leave you scratching your head at times. Different requirements for different species must be taken into account.

OK my head hurts....I miss keeping African cichlids

Rich the problem is we are putting species of corals that come from one environmental niche into a competely different environmental niche (our aquarium). While some corals are adapted to the environment our tank provides other change from their original state in the wild (adapt) or don't succeed at all. Normally reefkeepers pay no regard to the original environment that the corals they keep thrived in.

 

[spykes]

Rich the problem is we are putting species of corals that come from one environmental niche into a competely different environmental niche (our aquarium). While some corals are adapted to the environment our tank provides other change from their original state in the wild (adapt) or don't succeed at all. Normally reefkeepers pay no regard to the original environment that the corals they keep thrived in.

i think that's why some corals look diffrent captive, as well as diffrent zoox for better survival rate, evolution does some crazy things.

 

[ShaunW]

Sounds like an increase in chlorophyll pigment (possible growth of zoox). Like Solbby said before its hard to know what nutrient is limiting.

I would suspect and others agree (most notably Bomber) that phosphate, and bio-available Fe (please don't start mentioning iron related reef products before you have at least thought about what I am saying) are some of the predominantly limiting nutrients.

 

[ShaunW]

i think that's why some corals look diffrent captive, as well as diffrent zoox for better survival rate, evolution does some crazy things.

I would consider it adaption.

 

[spykes]

I would consider it adaption.

quite right adaption =D

 

[jackson6745]

Ok so where are we going with this thread?

 

[cali_reef]

Ok so where are we going with this thread?

I am getting Discus if I can't get the No3 down with the new skimmer I just bought.

 

[spykes]

Ok so where are we going with this thread?

everything is just so closely related to each other :p

 

[House of Laughter]

I have always taken the "husbandry tells all approach" to maintaining my reef - I have noted that certain animals do better under certain conditions. I, like Pierce, have not been able to keep certain corals alive, and some alive, colored up.

One thing I have noted (not through any empirical findings), though, is that with a more complex system (I have a display, a fuge, a frag tank and a sump) one area has some unwanted reef "stuff" (algae, cyano etc). There has to be something about the balance that that creates - like Pierce's tank(s) - connected fish only to his reef, one feeding the other, etc. My fuge is full of chaeto, some of which is covered with cyano, but the display is pristine (knock wood). I have 0's across the board (Po4, No3 etc).

I don't know what the secret is, but once the system is balanced, I know it works and can see the animals responding to it - I am at a phase right now where anything I put in is just popping (again, I know) and the tank is really starting to show it's beauty.

Same with my 92 corner (for those of you who remember), stuff would grow in 2 days time, put a foot down etc - yet, my unlit sump with pseudo-fuge (which was a hang on breeder cup) had heair algae growing all over the place - yet the display was pristine.

Again, with my limited and unscientific experience in the hobby (only been doing this for 4 years) I gravitate towards the system giving and taking from each other - notice, the tanks on the board that are tank only, and no fuge, or no sump etc are overgrown with green hair algae etc.

I do water changes every week, and have noticed that that has been key for me - not that I have any detectable levels at the time of the water change, but the animals respond to fresh water.

FWIW

Jim

 

[ShaunW]

Ok so where are we going with this thread?

I say right back to nitrate!! I am almost done reading all the papers that Paul gave. There are alot of good pieces of information to bring up and discuss.