How much live rock is enough?

[jackson6745]

This might be a stupid question but I have been wondering how much biological filtration is needed for a reef. I know that nitrifying bacteria lives on rock, sand, or any other surface area in different quantities but how much is actually needed to complete the nitrogen cycle? If I started a reef with no rock and a skimmer would I always have ammonia + nitrite? Would it work?
I don't have a great understanding of the scientific background of the hobby so I need some guidance.
In the nitrate thread it was said that corals consume ammonium + nitrate. I am thinking that a high fishload corresponds to increased color because the lack of nitrifying bacteria compared to bioload is leaving trace amounts of ammonia in the water???

Someone steer me in the right direction.....Paul, Shaun, Dave???

 

[jhale]

well I guess with enough flow and a big enough skimmer you could remove the waste before it has a chance to pollute the tank.


"In the nitrate thread it was said that corals consume ammonium + nitrate. I am thinking that a high fishload corresponds to increased color because the lack of nitrifying bacteria compared to bioload is leaving trace amounts of ammonia in the water"

I just had a conversation with dave today about this. I think I'm too tired to explain it correctly, I'll let him do it later:happysad: it was something like the fish poo feed the bacteria that break it down, and the coral will feed on that bacteria. there is a lot more too it, lol

 

[griMReefer]

id never trust skimmers alone-- do they remove organic solids, not ammonia and other dissolved fluids (fluids meaning other aqueous and gaseous compounds not suspensions)? i think not. as far as i know, the general rule of thumb for reefs is 1-2 lbs of rock per tank gallonage. as for the bio chain its the bacteria are needed in order to quickly convert the ammonia (excrement) and other waste (elimination, poop) that the fish and other non-photosynthetic are constantly putting out, into nitrites that are less toxic and can be utilized by coral unlike nitrate which is poisonous to them? or something like that.

 

[nanoreefer22]

id never trust skimmers alone-- do they remove organic solids, not ammonia and other dissolved fluids (fluids meaning other aqueous and gaseous compounds not suspensions)? i think not. as far as i know, the general rule of thumb for reefs is 1-2 lbs of rock per tank gallonage. as for the bio chain its the bacteria are needed in order to quickly convert the ammonia (excrement) and other waste (elimination, poop) that the fish and other non-photosynthetic are constantly putting out, into nitrites that are less toxic and can be utilized by coral unlike nitrate which is poisonous to them? or something like that.

Times have changed, skimmer is king ....took the place of the sandbed, kinda.

 

[ShaunW]

This might be a stupid question but I have been wondering how much biological filtration is needed for a reef.

Simple answer: the more the better. In a real reef the biological filtration is enormous, nothing goes to waste and everything is recycled. The biological buffering capacity of a reef ecosystem is one of the true biological marvels of the earth. In our tanks, the greater ability to replicate the same thing, the better the health of the tank. Unfortunately, we are dealing with a miniscule amount of water and biological diversity in our aquariums. We deal with this using mechanical filtration.

I know that nitrifying bacteria lives on rock, sand, or any other surface area in different quantities but how much is actually needed to complete the nitrogen cycle?

The greater input of nutrients (food) that you import into the tank that doesn't get consumed and recycled, the greater about of live rock is need to act as a biological buffer for that food. Live rock contains more than just bacteria, all the pods, worms etc provide a nessesary service in the breakdown of unwanted nutrients. Live rock is the sanctuary for these important middle managers of the reef.

If I started a reef with no rock and a skimmer would I always have ammonia + nitrite? Would it work?

Nitrate and ammonia would be unmanageable. The tank would fail miserably, very quickly.

I don't have a great understanding of the scientific background of the hobby so I need some guidance.
In the nitrate thread it was said that corals consume ammonium + nitrate. I am thinking that a high fishload corresponds to increased color because the lack of nitrifying bacteria compared to bioload is leaving trace amounts of ammonia in the water???

Someone steer me in the right direction.....Paul, Shaun, Dave???

HTH, I need to finish my line of reasoning in the nitrate thread, since some important later parts to the puzzle are still missing and haven't been discussed. The bold statement that I highlighted isn't correct Rich.

 

[jackson6745]

Grim thanks for the response but this doesn't exactly answer my question. I understand how the nitrogen cycle works but can enough nitryifing bacteria grow on the glass, in the water column, or maybe just a small amount of LR? I wonder if anyone tried to cycle a tank with no biological filtration, just some water movement for gas exchange?

 

[nanoreefer22]

Grim thanks for the response but this doesn't exactly answer my question. I understand how the nitrogen cycle works but can enough nitryifing bacteria grow on the glass, in the water column, or maybe just a small amount of LR? I wonder if anyone tried to cycle a tank with no biological filtration, just some water movement for gas exchange?

Where would the bacteria come from, if its all new water? Can it just be formed out of nothing?

My interest is sparked.

 

[jackson6745]

Where would the bacteria come from, if its all new water? Can it just be formed out of nothing?

My interest is sparked.

you can pee in the tank (for you Herman)

I guess you can just introduce a source ie feed the tank.

 

[ShaunW]

Grim thanks for the response but this doesn't exactly answer my question. I understand how the nitrogen cycle works but can enough nitryifing bacteria grow on the glass, in the water column, or maybe just a small amount of LR? I wonder if anyone tried to cycle a tank with no biological filtration, just some water movement for gas exchange?

I've done this. Algae takes over, filling in for the missing bacteria and lack of biological filtration.

 

[ShaunW]

Where would the bacteria come from, if its all new water? Can it just be formed out of nothing?

My interest is sparked.

The bacteria come from in the air, dust and from the surrounding room. Even when you put your hand in the tank your inoculating the tank with bacteria.

Many of the nitrifying bacteria in an aquarium are present in the natural environment, i.e. Pseudomonas species.

 

[griMReefer]

there are bacteria in the air waiting to multiply once they have moisture and food. it doesn't matter much for the bacteria types of concern whether saltwater or freshwater. there are bacteria everywhere, seeding the water from the air, mainly.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

the whole purpose of live rock is to INCREASE the substrate upon which ammonia-busting bacteria colonize. considering the size of bacteria, rough surfaces of rock have an exponentially greater substrate to colonize than the relatively smooth surface of glass.

sure, bacteria will colonize most all surfaces in your tank, but the substrate upon which the bacteria have available to colonize (in addition to the available food) determines how much ammonia you can be filtering out of the closed environment and thus how many fish you can (or more appropriately, can't have) in that enclosed environment where ammonia has only one means of escape: bacterial consumption (other than negligible dissipation into the surrounding air).

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

im not sure about what wastes corals (or the symbionts they house) utilize.

 

[jackson6745]

Thanks for explaining Shaun,

 

[kimoyo]

In the nitrate thread it was said that corals consume ammonium + nitrate. I am thinking that a high fishload corresponds to increased color because the lack of nitrifying bacteria compared to bioload is leaving trace amounts of ammonia in the water???

The sps coral uses ammonia and the zoox uses nitrates, but the coral absorbs both.

I just had a conversation with dave today about this. I think I'm too tired to explain it correctly, I'll let him do it later:happysad: it was something like the fish poo feed the bacteria that break it down, and the coral will feed on that bacteria. there is a lot more too it, lol

I'm not sure if the coral would actually feed on the bacteria. There are bacteria that specifically break down organics into ammonia that the coral could use. So what dave was saying about the film makes sense to me. The corals use the ammonia + other stuff to create amino acids for itself. But the ammonia could probably also simply diffuse into the coral or take a cellular pathway.

 

[jackson6745]

WTF is a cellular pathway?

 

[kimoyo]

do they remove organic solids, not ammonia and other dissolved fluids (fluids meaning other aqueous and gaseous compounds not suspensions)? i think not.

They can remove organic solids. Thats why the BB people like becketts so much, remove as much as you can before the bacteria break it down.

 

[ShaunW]

WTF is a cellular pathway?

LOL!! Think of it as a highway leading from one place to another. In this case your doing a cascade of reactions leading from one simple molecule (such as CO2) to a more complex molecule used for energy or energy storage, i.e. biogenesis or biosynthesis.

The opposite can also be true of a cellular pathway (degradation), going from a complex molecule used as food, i.e. carbohydrates (pasta is good!!) to raw biological energy (ATP).

 

[jackson6745]

Ok I understand, thanks

 

[kimoyo]

What solbby just described I think is a metabolic pathway.

But there were some other classifications I read in those papers; transcellular pathway (like a diffusion thru the cell) and paracellular pathway (inbetween the cell). But I'm really bs'ing now because I don't really know, lol. I'm sure Solbby should explain it..haha.

 

[kimoyo]

Solbby, we should finish that nitrate discussion because I'm still confused about somethings. Not now, lol, but soon.

 

[ShaunW]

Solbby, we should finish that nitrate discussion because I'm still confused about somethings. Not now, lol, but soon.

Sounds good. I've been thinking about other things over the last 24 hours, . For example my real scientific research, :lol: :afro: .

Oh, btw all the different pathways that you mentioned above can be interlinked (mix and matched) in that a transcellular pathway can be metabolic in nature, i.e. for example requiring the breakdown of ATP for active transport (carrier proteins). Mitochondria are a good example of paracellular pathways being metabolic also.