- Location
- Duluth, Minnesota
Flex
One final note, after learning about the redfield ratio and the relationship of C, N & P to bacterial growth... I noticed in the other thread that some people were having problems bringing N down past a certain level.
One needs to be careful with the phase Redfield Ratio, as those often posted or given are for pelagic Phytoplankton and not bacteria.
I do not think /say that P is the issue. There are differnt bacteria, i.e, PAB and Non-PAB . PAB = Phosphate Accumulating Bacteria. This maybe part of the issue.
If P has reached near 0 levels, there will be no way for the bacteria to continue consuming N and C. Again, there is a ratio of consumption that is held constant. Even though there is plenty of C available in the form of pellets, the bacteria colonization will halt at that point because there is no longer enough P present for it to continue growing, hence the inability to further reduce N.
But what are you calling near zero ? Reefs have on the order of 0.005 ppm PO4. As far as C goes seawater is never limited by C. Your Alk is C based, CO3--, HCO3-. It is more on the order that the N is accmulating at a much higher rate than can be consumed, more P or not. If one raise P there may be a bacterial explosion which has been known to happen in reef tanks
The same can be inferred if its the other way around. If N has reached 0 or untraceable, the P level in the system will be held constant at that point because equilibrium has been reached just like above.
But you are not going to find this. One has to remember that most are only testing for Orthophosphate and not other forms of phosphate your kit can not detect, i.e., organic phosphates, polyphosphates,etc., which many bacteria can convert and use.
Is it safe to assume that while running Pellets, if your PO4 readings are minimal (e.g. .01) and your Nitrates are held constant at 5-10ppm and cannot go down any further (I think Dr. Harry is experiencing this), and introduction of PO4 into the system will further jolt the bacteria into growth again and help to bring NO3 down even further? :scratch: hmmmmm..
Yes maybe but do you really want to do this ? And maybe create a massive bacteria explosion ? When N is increasing or even in steady state it is THAT population density that reached a peak for THAT processes taking place. The Bio-Pellets may have reached their peek and other means are needed.
Joe Yullio at the Atlantis Aquarium on Long Island has been dealing with the same, High NO3 and low PO4-. Over the course of months he has been very careful to slowly adding Ethanol and slowly increasing it. It *appears now the NO3 - is going down or at least we hope. He sure as hell now does not want to increase the dosage more now it it is taking place, for a fear of an off-set and a water column bacterial explosion.
The real issue here is one overloading the system with NO3- and one needs to cure this source of NO3-. Part of this may be due to little or lack of proper sufrace area for Facultative Denitrifying Anaerobic Bacteria or the need of a Denitro-reactor. The idea of adding more P to the water column will bring one to the next stage i.e., a water column bacterial explosion to reduce the NO3-. That is NOT where you want it taking place. Some Denitrifying Bacteria can actually encapsulate themselves ( making themselves a very low O2 environment) and grow on the rock, glass, underside of plants or even in the water column.
One final note, after learning about the redfield ratio and the relationship of C, N & P to bacterial growth... I noticed in the other thread that some people were having problems bringing N down past a certain level.
One needs to be careful with the phase Redfield Ratio, as those often posted or given are for pelagic Phytoplankton and not bacteria.
I do not think /say that P is the issue. There are differnt bacteria, i.e, PAB and Non-PAB . PAB = Phosphate Accumulating Bacteria. This maybe part of the issue.
If P has reached near 0 levels, there will be no way for the bacteria to continue consuming N and C. Again, there is a ratio of consumption that is held constant. Even though there is plenty of C available in the form of pellets, the bacteria colonization will halt at that point because there is no longer enough P present for it to continue growing, hence the inability to further reduce N.
But what are you calling near zero ? Reefs have on the order of 0.005 ppm PO4. As far as C goes seawater is never limited by C. Your Alk is C based, CO3--, HCO3-. It is more on the order that the N is accmulating at a much higher rate than can be consumed, more P or not. If one raise P there may be a bacterial explosion which has been known to happen in reef tanks
The same can be inferred if its the other way around. If N has reached 0 or untraceable, the P level in the system will be held constant at that point because equilibrium has been reached just like above.
But you are not going to find this. One has to remember that most are only testing for Orthophosphate and not other forms of phosphate your kit can not detect, i.e., organic phosphates, polyphosphates,etc., which many bacteria can convert and use.
Is it safe to assume that while running Pellets, if your PO4 readings are minimal (e.g. .01) and your Nitrates are held constant at 5-10ppm and cannot go down any further (I think Dr. Harry is experiencing this), and introduction of PO4 into the system will further jolt the bacteria into growth again and help to bring NO3 down even further? :scratch: hmmmmm..
Yes maybe but do you really want to do this ? And maybe create a massive bacteria explosion ? When N is increasing or even in steady state it is THAT population density that reached a peak for THAT processes taking place. The Bio-Pellets may have reached their peek and other means are needed.
Joe Yullio at the Atlantis Aquarium on Long Island has been dealing with the same, High NO3 and low PO4-. Over the course of months he has been very careful to slowly adding Ethanol and slowly increasing it. It *appears now the NO3 - is going down or at least we hope. He sure as hell now does not want to increase the dosage more now it it is taking place, for a fear of an off-set and a water column bacterial explosion.
The real issue here is one overloading the system with NO3- and one needs to cure this source of NO3-. Part of this may be due to little or lack of proper sufrace area for Facultative Denitrifying Anaerobic Bacteria or the need of a Denitro-reactor. The idea of adding more P to the water column will bring one to the next stage i.e., a water column bacterial explosion to reduce the NO3-. That is NOT where you want it taking place. Some Denitrifying Bacteria can actually encapsulate themselves ( making themselves a very low O2 environment) and grow on the rock, glass, underside of plants or even in the water column.
