Nitrates are KILLIN me! Tried EVERYTHING!

[waynotcars]

A bio-pellet thread where I say that it is nothing more then a solid form of vodka dosing. Bio-pellet update it's called. My opinion on bio pellets is they are no more then solid carbon dosing and vodka is liqued carbon dosing. My opinion is vodka is same thing and way cheaper. Just opinion. No name calling, no unnecessary angtagonism at all but I was TOLD to take my opinions elsewhere. On a FORUM which is supposed to be a place for opinons.

 

[waynotcars]

Oh and thanks for the compliment dananger. Appreciate it!

 

[Mattl22]

That a huge skimmer ! Is that table it's on strong? I wish had a basement to have a sump in it's gonna make water changes much easier ! I started vodka dosing about 2 months ago and am starting to really see good results! I also had a new / used skimmer at the time once I finally got the skimmer running right ( think it just needed time to break in) it started to pull awesome skimate it now stinks up my coop when I clean it out!
I found with the vodka that u don't need that much , I was upping my dosage in the beginning and had cyan out breaks when I cut my dose in half it went away and has stayed away also my hair alage is almost all gone but it took time!
Goodluck

 

[AlohaTropics]

I would try Special Blend and Nite Out II by microbe-lift.

Overall, biopellets where invented especially for this situation.

I don't want to start another thread of controversy but biopellets are fundamentally different than dosing vodka. Dosing Vodka is putting something hoping it's being used properly. Biopellets are only used up as needed by bacteria so it keeps the balance of bacteria in the system natural rather than "forced". It's really big a fundamental difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

 

[waynotcars]

I understand the science behind bio-pellets and have said so. From reading threads where reefers ahev tried them, they are having much difficulty getting them to tumble correctly, cloudong their tanks and all sorts of other problems. Reading articles on carbon dosing and pellets, there is absolutley no way of knowing the amount of carbon and bio films being released into the aquarium. What I have said, is court is still out on them and that the equipment necessary in running them can get expensive. The science behind all carbon dosing is still very incomplete. What I have said is until they are proven to be more effective then other carbon dosing are they worth the expense. again, it's JUST an opinion. Not an argument. I do not wish to bash what others try. We all try different things. I would never tell any member on this forum OR any other to take their opiniond elsewhere. In fact, I belong to numerous forums and do not find this clickish attitude to be as strong as here on MR.

 

[pauliwalnuts]

I understand the science behind bio-pellets and have said so. From reading threads where reefers ahev tried them, they are having much difficulty getting them to tumble correctly, cloudong their tanks and all sorts of other problems. Reading articles on carbon dosing and pellets, there is absolutley no way of knowing the amount of carbon and bio films being released into the aquarium. What I have said, is court is still out on them and that the equipment necessary in running them can get expensive. The science behind all carbon dosing is still very incomplete. What I have said is until they are proven to be more effective then other carbon dosing are they worth the expense. again, it's JUST an opinion. Not an argument. I do not wish to bash what others try. We all try different things. I would never tell any member on this forum OR any other to take their opiniond elsewhere. In fact, I belong to numerous forums and do not find this clickish attitude to be as strong as here on MR.

Wow. How far are you going to go with this ? Let it go already.

 

[greenstreet.1]

solve problems stop making war there is enough in the world. PEACE AND LOVE
GREENSTREET.1

 

[AlohaTropics]

I've encountered people with tumbling issues and other issues with the pellets. 99.9% of these issues have risen because people like to mix and match what parts of directions to listen to. Many people have experienced tank issues because they take off all of the their GFO, Denitrator, etc... and just put the pellets on. Also, they dump the pellets into a TLF phosban reactor and complain it doesn't tumble. Well, when people don't listen, things go bad. I always recommend either the Vertex UF reactor or the Next Reef Pellet Reactor. Both reactors have larger than normal input & outputs to give the necessary broader flow to tumble the pellets correctly. And as I noted before, you are correct with Vodka dosing, there is no way of knowing the exact amount of biology you are creating. But that is precisely why the pellets are different. Only direct consumption from bacteria is whats causing the pellets to be used up. So in essence, the carbon that is being eaten is the only carbon that is in your system. You seem to have a difficulty understanding that the pellets are not melting away in the water, they are being consumed. That is why they shrink at different paces in different systems depending on how aggressive the bacteria is colonizing based on the amount of available Nitrogen and Phosphorus Organics.

PS - I have no problem with your opinions, this is an open discussion forum.

 

[AlohaTropics]

I guess a way to look at it is this:

You have free floating organics in the form of Nitrogenous waste and Phosphorus. The Bacterial Nutrient reduction method utilizes all 3 forms of Organics to cultivate the necessary amount of bacteria to consume C, N & P. I don't know the scientific percentages or ratios they need to consume to grow (e.g. 2 parts C to 1 part N to 3 parts P??? who knows) but there IS a ratio. The problem with Vodka dosing is, you do not know exactly how much C to dose in relation to existing N & P. You actually never know because N & P measurments are no where near precise because N & P is being actively consumed and produced in a closed aquarium. Sometimes people will read 0 PO4 and 0 NO3 but still have algae problems, well thats because its being actively consumed by the algae. So Vodka is essentially trial and error in finding the right ratio (also known as the Redfield Ratio) all the while you are allowing the bacteria colony to form all over your tank, on the rocks, in the plumbing, etc... Again, loss of control to the system.

Now the difference with the pellets (IF used properly) is that as N & P flow through the reactor, the bacteria will begin to colonize on the PELLETS only because that is the only place they can get the necessary C to complete their growth cycle. Also, the precise ratio of C, N & P will always be consistent because the pellets will only shrink as NEEDED or consumed. So no matter how much N & P is in your water column, theoretically the bacteria colony will continue to grow until it is all consumed in the ratio of C available. At that point, an equilbrium has been achieved and bacteria will stop growing. Some may even die off as N & P become less available.

Bacteria will escape the reactor chamber of course. That is why a) always situate the reactor right before the skimmer. This will help skim out much of the bacteria that escapes. b) trace bacteria will be consumed by corals and other filter feeders. c) any bacteria still remaining in the system will die off because they have no direct access to C (the pellets).

I hope this brings a little insight.

 

[Boomer]

There is no sand to stir. Barebottom.

That is most of your issue, as you more than likely have little surface area for facultative anaerobic denitrification to take place and where your refugium and current denitra-unit can not handle the load. Your LR is doing much of nothing and as suggested may be leaching out more NO3, as there is little facultative anaerobic denitrification. And to add by others to much playing around with the system, to try and fix something. Your issue is common to many BB tanks. This was reason years ago many left the BB tank and went to SB tanks, as many BB tanks or what is coined "nitrate factories"

 

[waynotcars]

Well first off, thank you to Aloha Tropics and Boomer for your very detailed explanations and patience. I appreciate it immensely. I still do have a few questions if you don't mind. First, let me say I AGREE and realize that I have done TOO much to my system to try and fix this nitrate problem. I know that, but what other choice would I have. The nitrate is not going to go down by itself with no intervention. I also agree that NO3 is more then likely so entrenched in my rock that it is leeching into the system. I don't know what to do about that? I cannot afford to replace the amount of rock in this system. I did remove about 25% or so though. As for BB I am confused now because before removing my sand the nitrates were through the roof. I never worried about it. I had large Triggers and Groupers and Puffers and fed LOTS of scallops, clams, etc. I knew the nitrates were high but the fish didn't mind. In fact they grew and thrived and just ate more and more. Then I got the urge to try my hand at a reef tank. I went to LFS to a guy I've been dealing with for 20 or so years and upon his advice removed my sandbed and bio balls. He told me they were nitrate traps. I use the word "melting" where the pellets are concerned for lack of a better word. It is just semantics. I know they're being absorbed.

You guys have given me exactly what I come to forums for. Explanantion. You very patiently explained to me the difference between pellets and vodka dosing.

So if you don't mind. If in my shoes, what would you guys do?? Every parameter is good except the nitrates. I planned on just doing 5 ml vodka a day, which is not a lot for a 300 gal system and waiting for the asm skimmer to catch up and help. If you have advice for me, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again

 

[NYreefNoob]

maybe if you listen and re-read hat people are trying to tell you and explain to you, you might get a better grasp of what is being said. once again i never said the skimmer was junk, said the aqua c was way under rated for a tank that size, and i do believe asm's are junk for what they cost. i have owned a few skimmers. 20 or so. and as i said in the other thread i did vodka for almost a year, also did sugar, vinegar, ive never reall had high nitrates well guess 50ppm is high, and i used my sulfur denitrator to bring them down to 5. out of everything i have tried and used the pellets are the easiest with same results or better. you keep saying wait longer for more research on the pellets, how long do you think they have been out ? i am not trying to convence you one way or the oher which is better or what to use. i stated my personal opinion from what i have done and used. nite out and special blend are another way to go, and used it also, i like to ty stuff out and am a equiptment junky, how big of water changes and how often are you doing them ?

 

[DJYoshi]

i have owned a few skimmers. 20 or so.

With Thanksgiving around the bend...NYRN that's a CORNUCOPIA of skimmers!

On a serious note, great advice from everyone on this thread about reduction. all points noted

 

[waynotcars]

Well, when I built the 100 gal sump last week I changed 40% of the water in the display in addition to adding the 75 gals in the sump. I believed that this would at least reduce the nitrates to a degree by diluting them but no luck. I have read about the special blend and everything I read sounds good so far.

 

[waynotcars]

Oh, just 1 question, NYRN, why do you say asm are junk for what they cost? Do you mean if they cost less they wouldn't be junk? Isn't junk a little bit strong a word?

 

[NYreefNoob]

i had a real nice 2 hour convo with the guys from special blend at macna and they gave me alot of their products and i kepts track of levels and had sent it to them. { most testing i had done } large wc will dilute it some temporarily, my best guess is you do have it leaching from rock. with all the bi fish and way you fed, alot is probably in the rocks. how long have u been on the vodka ? you are way low on doseage amount for it too really be effecting the nitrates ect

 

[AlohaTropics]

One final note, after learning about the redfield ratio and the relationship of C, N & P to bacterial growth... I noticed in the other thread that some people were having problems bringing N down past a certain level.

This is just a theory of mine:

If P has reached near 0 levels, there will be no way for the bacteria to continue consuming N and C. Again, there is a ratio of consumption that is held constant. Even though there is plenty of C available in the form of pellets, the bacteria colonization will halt at that point because there is no longer enough P present for it to continue growing, hence the inability to further reduce N.

The same can be inferred if its the other way around. If N has reached 0 or untraceable, the P level in the system will be held constant at that point because equilibrium has been reached just like above.

Maybe someone with a better background in Marine Chemistry can answer this:

Is it safe to assume that while running Pellets, if your PO4 readings are minimal (e.g. .01) and your Nitrates are held constant at 5-10ppm and cannot go down any further (I think Dr. Harry is experiencing this), and introduction of PO4 into the system will further jolt the bacteria into growth again and help to bring NO3 down even further? :scratch: hmmmmm.....

 

[NYreefNoob]

i think they are built like crap, materialis way to thin, they 99% of the time leak at the seals. and for what they cost new you can buy a much more efficient skimmer for less, and sedra isnt a bad pump other then heat and electric, actually the sedra 9000 ho out performs the ehiem, btw i have had 2 or 3 asm's, example asm g3 $300 + vertex in180 $287, the vertex is built solid, use's less electric and will easily out perform the asm

 

[DrHarryLopez]

Is it safe to assume that while running Pellets, if your PO4 readings are minimal (e.g. .01) and your Nitrates are held constant at 5-10ppm and cannot go down any further (I think Dr. Harry is experiencing this), and introduction of PO4 into the system will further jolt the bacteria into growth again and help to bring NO3 down even further? :scratch: hmmmmm.....

Interesting thought Felix, but I'm not having Nitrates issues or Phos both are very low. LOL

Your thoery sounds resonable though...

Harry

 

[waynotcars]

Well this is the first asm I have, the G6x. It doesn't leak a bit. Yes, the materials are thin, I'll admit that, but my main concern is the job it does. I don't care if it looks like a jewel. Mine runs on two Sedra 15000's. They are quiet and seem to produce mega skim. I never worry about electricity. I expect a high electric bill with running an Iwaki return pump, 900 watts of halides, 312 watts of T5's etc etc. I just consider it another cost of being in this hobby.