To Quote brokekyle
>>here ya go... but 1st a question.. did you charge those people for your advice? And no I don't sell anything for profit there's far too many rips offs in this hobby.. I make them for reef buddies. Sell/trade them for more supplies.it's a karma thing
I really get a kick out of showing someone how to save money in this hobby.
I am paid a fee for teaching the MACO course on acrylic fabrication. So, in essence a fee is paid. But I do this as more of a hobby to benefit hobby.
>>I guess my techniques are beyond your comprehension. This structure is primarily held together from friction fit along the tubular walls at the points where it meets the horizontal braces..
Your design transfers all the stress to the bottom butt weld..which is also meant to be water tight.
By design your reactor is flawed.. It's inherently weaker than my design. Unless you use outrageously expensive material it is only a matter of time and vibration that yours will crack and leak. ( yeah i said that. and that includes all the similar ones too)
Sorry but with like materials yours will never be capable of handling the stresses that mine handles..
Oh, they will, using proper techniques. I don't use outrageously expensive material. I just use the proper material. I understand your design. But how are you sealing the ends of your tubes? I see them pass through your supports.
You're not the first to socket pieces. Several of the manufacturers used to do it. I do it for my flanges, but I'm cutting a dado with a router, and the tube ends sets into that dado by .05". Again, this isn't something most hobbyists can do using standard tools.
>>I don't need to set pressure along the total circumference of the tubing.. fact is.. it's not a water tight area so if I only "spot" glue it in place it will securely stay together..it'll stay together if I don't glue it at all! some (not all ) of the water tight areas get fillet welds on both sides.. And if I wanted all water tight joints it would be easy enough with weldon 16. Not all the joints need to be water tight
The only butt welds are on the bottom of each cylinder.. look at the picture.But those butt welds are not subject to ANY
sheer weight from the structure they only allow the vessel to become water tight They are not a structural supports !!
Using #16 shows your lack of cement knowledge. That's a sloppy glue for hack projects...
>>HUH?? do you know how the make cell cast?/
but like I said.. cast is only worth the cost for mass production whereas the material cost is transferred to the consumer.
so.. what happens is the manufactures save money through labor and time but pass the material cost on to the end consumer.
It's in the manufactures benefit to sell cast over extruded.. ya know.. higher profit margin!!
And It also sounds like you don't know how to make an exact hole.. I do..
Fact is..at this point I have several templates for 1 1/2"-8" X1/4 both ID and OD.
I can make a hole for anything I have in stock in less than 3 min a whole.. I may have to sand a little.
FYI..for my purpose the exact OD and ID for a given diameter is pretty constant however extruded is never round..
And my holes are perfectly round
That's my only complaint about the material.
Cast tube is made in a glass mold. There's an ID and an OD mold. Acrylic monomer is poured into these molds, then autoclaved to begin the cure process. These gaps between the two walls of the mold can vary slightly, as can the OD and ID glass molds themselves. So, there are tolerance issues with cast tube.
It's not a matter of charging the consumer excessive amounts, to make more profit. It's a matter of charging for the proper materials. You're more than welcome to use substandard materials. Have at it. I really don't care. There are plenty of other DIYers out there doing this. You're welcome to remain one of them.
>>>And what cementing techniques are you using?
>>capillary and fillet
And your capilarry method is flawed, because you use the simple capillary method, which is a poorer way to do it. And you're using #16 for fillet welds, again, a poor technique.
>>>I'd like to know why butt welding is improper?
>>I shouldn't say improper.. I should've said it's the weakest, shows lack of workmanships shows lack of understanding of structural soundness.. and actually the worst way to join a cylinder to a piece of flat stock.
Fact is ..I shouldn't have to mention this to you.. you should already know this.
IMO any statement to the contrary lessens any creditability you have ..if any..
It's not JUST IMHO.. it's a fact.. butt welds are crap.. but sometimes you gotta use them.
Yes, it's the weakest for other materials, such as wood. I think you're applying your knowledge of carpentry to other materials, of which you don't seem to have a strong understanding.
>>If you looked my note.. the only time where I think cast is worth the dough is for aquariums..But not for the strength.. for the optical clarity and even in those situations the butt welds are supplemented with bracing along the tops.
But in all honesty anyone that thinks butts welds are a structurally preferred method of joining two pieces of material is far below my standards.
There's better ways to join those seams but it's more time consuming and more costly
Then you should talk with Cyro, because they might be enlightened by your knowledge. Maybe they'll hire you to explain to them how extruded is as strong as cast.
>>Regarding cast versus extruded. Extruded tube has a very low molecular weight. In talking with James last week, he pointed out that it's even worse than I had been told. Extruded has 1/25-1/10 of the molecular weight of cast. Both materials absorb water, by the same amount. So, extruded becomes even worse off in respect to it's structural integrity when it's being used to hold water.
Extruded can be used. So can wood. Are either the right material? No. But, if you insist on being cheap and using the wrong materials, have at it.
>>hey yous a funny guy haha
Hey.. I'm not trying to argue that extruded is better or as good as cast.. I know cast is a better material.. I do however think (once again) it's a waste of money for most things in this hobby..
IMO..many wanna be "fabricators" hide their lack of workmanship and knowledge by throwing money at materials.
The original poster complained about the cracks along the the base of a 24" butt welded tube.
Your only explanation was that he used extruded and that was the only cause.. I only pointed out that wasn't the cause.. The way he was instructed to assemble the structure was the true cause..
You're welcome to be as cheap as you want, I personally don't care, as I stated earlier. The original poster had his questions answered. You piped in with your mythinformation that extruded is just as good. It's simply not the case. The cracking he observed was a matter of the inherent stresses in extruded. Period.
>>>Again, describe your cementing technique. Sorry to say it, but I just don't believe that you know what you're talking about.
>>Now tell me what does that have to do with Cast Vs extruded? Butt weld vs insert welds??
Stick to the issues( shaking head)
I did stick to the issue, because specific cementing techniques produce more stress in the seams. Your method if fillet welding induces stress in a seam as the cement cures. The cement shrinks as the solvent vents off through the material, pulling the materials toward each other. And your method of capillary cementing does not provide the proper contact between the materials. Sand all you want, it's not the best way to do it. You're welcome to feel it is. I guess the entire world of plastic fabrication has something to learn from your genius.
>>>It's all great when it blows apart in your house, but not in someone else's.
>>that's interesting.. my reactors are built with 7.0+ earthquakes in mind. are yours??
I can install mine then violently rattle the towers 3" in any direction and the seams won't crack.. will yours?
( I just tried it works like a charm)
Fact is.. mine design in structural soundness simply blows your copies out of the water..
Overall I think my concepts are a bit over your head if they weren't you wouldn't be wasting my time by trying to argue..it's ok I understand you're trying to justify your charges.
In about 5-7 years you'll catch up..
LOL, now you're being funny. Do you know what I charge? So how do you know if I need to justify my charges. I'm not mass-producing products.
And your break test really means nothing. Anything that is assembled well will stand up to that. Drop your product down a flight of stairs? Did it break? Probably not on a weld? Well, good butt welds won't break that way either. A good butt weld, using the proper cementing technique and the proper cement, won't break on the weld either. The material will break first.
I don't need to catch up with your superiority, I know what I'm doing, and what I'm talking about. If your method is so superior, I think more people would be doing it. As it is, I just don't think you know how to properly cement acrylic, so you made up your own method.
>>Any research you've done on the cell vs extruded issue is way overboard for this hobby.
come on.. mole weight ect??
Fact is.. it's not research for this application it's more like a string of urban reef legends.
somebody got suckered into buying a $500 cast reactor and and now it's justify the cost and keep up with the Jones's!
more money means better!
Many try to find fault with the material..I say no.. it's the workmanship and the assembly procedures..
When you UNDERSTAND what you're doing extruded works just fine for this hobby.
I've used extruded in the past. I've seen many products created out of it. Sure it will work. But not for something I'm selling to someone else. It's not a legend, it's simply the truth. And the structural integrity of the material is dependent on its molecular weight, so it's not a moot point.
>>I compare it to the silica vs oolitic sand controversy.
Once somebody says it.. then everyone believes it to be true or false....
tens years later I'll say " I told ya so" never really made much of a difference anyway.
The bottom line is.....sure cast is better than extruded.
However.. for this hobby extruded is good enough.(for the 7th time)
The real advantages are.... cast is easier to work with hold it's shape better and it's has a higher optical quality.
My only intent is to inform the readers of this and other forums the advantages of either material.
I'm currently paying $2/ft for 4"X1/4 extruded tubing ...works for me!!
>>To say extruded is substandard is simply not true..
You've clearly got the need to show people your superior intellect. Have at it. Again, as stated several times, I don't care. You're welcome to share all you want. Personally, I'll stick with what I know to be true, and you can tell everyone how they are wrong. It's a waste of my time to continue arguing with you. The original poster has had his question answered by myself and another poster who works with acrylic on a daily basis. You can play DIY boy all you want from here on out.
BRIAN[/quote]
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