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Robin Goodfellow

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hi.
I do not have a clear understanding of your insert seam...
The way I understand it is that the cylinder is inserted into a hole in the holder, and solvent-welded. C.f. this to welding the cylinder directly onto a flat piece of plastic.

The holder reinforce the cylinder, but obviously, it needs to be a bit wider than the cylinder for it to work well. That is, if the holder is only 1/16 around the cylinder (a 1+1/16 radius holder with a 2 inch diameter hole in the middle), it (holder) will be a lot weaker than butt joint (although it does not make the cylinder any weaker than the butt joint).
 

fergy

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That method is bad, because you need the proper gap between the pieces to weld them properly. When you set the tube into a hole cut in the plate, you have no way of applying the proper pressure to all of the seam at the seam time. It also doesn't work for any sort of production situation, because cast tube has varying tolerances in OD. You would have to be able to determine the exact OD of the tube for each piece you assemble, which is a waste of time. Explain to me how you provide the proper gluing technique to all directions at the same time? And what cementing techniques are you using?

I'd like to know why butt welding is improper? What are you basing this on? If that's the case, then every acrylic aquarium out there was constructed incorrectly. I don't think you have a very good understanding of what you speak...

Regarding cast versus extruded. Extruded tube has a very low molecular weight. In talking with James last week, he pointed out that it's even worse than I had been told. Extruded has 1/25-1/10 of the molecular weight of cast. Both materials absorb water, by the same amount. So, extruded becomes even worse off in respect to it's structural integrity when it's being used to hold water.

Extruded can be used. So can wood. Are either the right material? No. But, if you insist on being cheap and using the wrong materials, have at it.

BRIAN
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brokekyle

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Robin Goodfellow":kzdvvtnz said:
hi.
That is, if the holder is only 1/16 around the cylinder (a 1+1/16 radius holder with a 2 inch diameter hole in the middle), it (holder) will be a lot weaker than butt joint (although it does not make the cylinder any weaker than the butt joint).
two things..
one my tolerences are far closer than 1/6".. more like + or - .005.. and I do without a CNC machine.. so can you
Two.. the joints fit so well through the hoizontal supports it doesn't need to be glued.. http://home.pacbell.net/kylesr/mycalreactor2.jpg

it all stays together from friction.. the weldon just adds support to the struture....
 

fergy

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brokekyle":1cfowvar said:
Robin Goodfellow":1cfowvar said:
hi.
That is, if the holder is only 1/16 around the cylinder (a 1+1/16 radius holder with a 2 inch diameter hole in the middle), it (holder) will be a lot weaker than butt joint (although it does not make the cylinder any weaker than the butt joint).
two things..
one my tolerences are far closer than 1/6".. more like + or - .005.. and I do without a CNC machine.. so can you
Two.. the joints fit so well through the hoizontal supports it doesn't need to be glued.. http://home.pacbell.net/kylesr/mycalreactor2.jpg

it all stays together from friction.. the weldon just adds support to the struture....

Heh.

You didn't answer my question about why butt welding is incorrect. Don't know the answer?

Your method is all fine and great, when you're making one item. Let's see how your tolerances drift with multiple items.

Given your manufacturing techniques, and belief that friction fit between the parts is fine, I certainly hope you're not selling these things. It's all great when it blows apart in your house, but not in someone else's.

Again, describe your cementing technique. Sorry to say it, but I just don't believe that you know what you're talking about.

BRIAN
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brokekyle

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fergy":xgahc3xm said:
You didn't answer my question about why butt welding is incorrect. Don't know the answer?

Your method is all fine and great, when you're making one item. Let's see how your tolerances drift with multiple items.

Given your manufacturing techniques, and belief that friction fit between the parts is fine, I certainly hope you're not selling these things. It's all great when it blows apart in your house, but not in someone else's.

Again, describe your cementing technique. Sorry to say it, but I just don't believe that you know what you're talking about.

BRIAN

here ya go... but 1st a question.. did you charge those people for your advice? And no I don't sell anything for profit there's far too many rips offs in this hobby.. I make them for reef buddies. Sell/trade them for more supplies.it's a karma thing
I really get a kick out of showing someone how to save money in this hobby.


>>That method is bad, because you need the proper gap between the pieces to weld them properly.

I guess my techniques are beyond your comprehension. This structure is primarily held together from friction fit along the tubular walls at the points where it meets the horizontal braces..
Your design transfers all the stress to the bottom butt weld..which is also meant to be water tight.
By design your reactor is flawed.. It's inherently weaker than my design. Unless you use outrageously expensive material it is only a matter of time and vibration that yours will crack and leak. ( yeah i said that. and that includes all the similar ones too)
Sorry but with like materials yours will never be capable of handling the stresses that mine handles..


>>When you set the tube into a hole cut in the plate, you have no way of applying the proper pressure to all of the seam at the seam time.

I don't need to set pressure along the total circumference of the tubing.. fact is.. it's not a water tight area so if I only "spot" glue it in place it will securely stay together..it'll stay together if I don't glue it at all! some (not all ) of the water tight areas get fillet welds on both sides.. And if I wanted all water tight joints it would be easy enough with weldon 16. Not all the joints need to be water tight
The only butt welds are on the bottom of each cylinder.. look at the picture.But those butt welds are not subject to ANY
sheer weight from the structure they only allow the vessel to become water tight They are not a structural supports !!


>>It also doesn't work for any sort of production situation, because cast tube has varying tolerances in OD. You would have to be able to determine the exact OD of the tube for each piece you assemble, which is a waste of time.

HUH?? do you know how the make cell cast?/
but like I said.. cast is only worth the cost for mass production whereas the material cost is transferred to the consumer.
so.. what happens is the manufactures save money through labor and time but pass the material cost on to the end consumer.
It's in the manufactures benefit to sell cast over extruded.. ya know.. higher profit margin!!
And It also sounds like you don't know how to make an exact hole.. I do..
Fact is..at this point I have several templates for 1 1/2"-8" X1/4 both ID and OD.
I can make a hole for anything I have in stock in less than 3 min a whole.. I may have to sand a little.
FYI..for my purpose the exact OD and ID for a given diameter is pretty constant however extruded is never round..
And my holes are perfectly round
That's my only complaint about the material.


>>Explain to me how you provide the proper gluing technique to all directions at the same time?

with the proper assembly you don't need too
you're stuck on somthing that's not structually important.
move on son

>>And what cementing techniques are you using?
capillary and fillet

>>I'd like to know why butt welding is improper?
I shouldn't say improper.. I should've said it's the weakest, shows lack of workmanships shows lack of understanding of structural soundness.. and actually the worst way to join a cylinder to a piece of flat stock.
Fact is ..I shouldn't have to mention this to you.. you should already know this.
IMO any statement to the contrary lessens any creditability you have ..if any..
It's not JUST IMHO.. it's a fact.. butt welds are crap.. but sometimes you gotta use them.

>>What are you basing this on? If that's the case, then every acrylic aquarium out there was constructed incorrectly. I don't think you have a very good understanding of what you speak...

If you looked my note.. the only time where I think cast is worth the dough is for aquariums..But not for the strength.. for the optical clarity and even in those situations the butt welds are supplemented with bracing along the tops.
But in all honesty anyone that thinks butts welds are a structurally preferred method of joining two pieces of material is far below my standards.
There's better ways to join those seams but it's more time consuming and more costly

>>Regarding cast versus extruded. Extruded tube has a very low molecular weight. In talking with James last week, he pointed out that it's even worse than I had been told. Extruded has 1/25-1/10 of the molecular weight of cast. Both materials absorb water, by the same amount. So, extruded becomes even worse off in respect to it's structural integrity when it's being used to hold water.
Extruded can be used. So can wood. Are either the right material? No. But, if you insist on being cheap and using the wrong materials, have at it.

hey yous a funny guy haha
Hey.. I'm not trying to argue that extruded is better or as good as cast.. I know cast is a better material.. I do however think (once again) it's a waste of money for most things in this hobby..
IMO..many wanna be "fabricators" hide their lack of workmanship and knowledge by throwing money at materials.
The original poster complained about the cracks along the the base of a 24" butt welded tube.
Your only explanation was that he used extruded and that was the only cause.. I only pointed out that wasn't the cause.. The way he was instructed to assemble the structure was the true cause..

>>Again, describe your cementing technique. Sorry to say it, but I just don't believe that you know what you're talking about.

Now tell me what does that have to do with Cast Vs extruded? Butt weld vs insert welds??
Stick to the issues( shaking head)



>>It's all great when it blows apart in your house, but not in someone else's.
that's interesting.. my reactors are built with 7.0+ earthquakes in mind. are yours??
I can install mine then violently rattle the towers 3" in any direction and the seams won't crack.. will yours?
( I just tried it works like a charm)
Fact is.. mine design in structural soundness simply blows your copies out of the water..
Overall I think my concepts are a bit over your head if they weren't you wouldn't be wasting my time by trying to argue..it's ok I understand you're trying to justify your charges.
In about 5-7 years you'll catch up..

furthermore

Any research you've done on the cell vs extruded issue is way overboard for this hobby.
come on.. mole weight ect??
Fact is.. it's not research for this application it's more like a string of urban reef legends.
somebody got suckered into buying a $500 cast reactor and and now it's justify the cost and keep up with the Jones's!
more money means better!
Many try to find fault with the material..I say no.. it's the workmanship and the assembly procedures..
When you UNDERSTAND what you're doing extruded works just fine for this hobby.

I compare it to the silica vs oolitic sand controversy.
Once somebody says it.. then everyone believes it to be true or false....
tens years later I'll say " I told ya so" never really made much of a difference anyway.
The bottom line is.....sure cast is better than extruded.
However.. for this hobby extruded is good enough.(for the 7th time)
The real advantages are.... cast is easier to work with hold it's shape better and it's has a higher optical quality.
My only intent is to inform the readers of this and other forums the advantages of either material.
I'm currently paying $2/ft for 4"X1/4 extruded tubing ...works for me!!

To say extruded is substandard is simply not true..


ciao
 
A

Anonymous

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I know nothing about acrylic fabrication, but I feel that your delivery, brokekyle, is caustic. If you could simply and clearly explain yourself, instead of laying on the condescending attitude you wouldn't meet what you perceive to be resistence.

Also, I think a factor in this argument is not only what you yourself can do, but what the average hobbyist seeking to DIY is capable of. I'm sure you would agree that not everyone has the same skill levels when it comes to fabrication techniques.
 

fergy

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To Quote brokekyle

>>here ya go... but 1st a question.. did you charge those people for your advice? And no I don't sell anything for profit there's far too many rips offs in this hobby.. I make them for reef buddies. Sell/trade them for more supplies.it's a karma thing
I really get a kick out of showing someone how to save money in this hobby.

I am paid a fee for teaching the MACO course on acrylic fabrication. So, in essence a fee is paid. But I do this as more of a hobby to benefit hobby.

>>I guess my techniques are beyond your comprehension. This structure is primarily held together from friction fit along the tubular walls at the points where it meets the horizontal braces..
Your design transfers all the stress to the bottom butt weld..which is also meant to be water tight.
By design your reactor is flawed.. It's inherently weaker than my design. Unless you use outrageously expensive material it is only a matter of time and vibration that yours will crack and leak. ( yeah i said that. and that includes all the similar ones too)
Sorry but with like materials yours will never be capable of handling the stresses that mine handles..

Oh, they will, using proper techniques. I don't use outrageously expensive material. I just use the proper material. I understand your design. But how are you sealing the ends of your tubes? I see them pass through your supports.

You're not the first to socket pieces. Several of the manufacturers used to do it. I do it for my flanges, but I'm cutting a dado with a router, and the tube ends sets into that dado by .05". Again, this isn't something most hobbyists can do using standard tools.

>>I don't need to set pressure along the total circumference of the tubing.. fact is.. it's not a water tight area so if I only "spot" glue it in place it will securely stay together..it'll stay together if I don't glue it at all! some (not all ) of the water tight areas get fillet welds on both sides.. And if I wanted all water tight joints it would be easy enough with weldon 16. Not all the joints need to be water tight
The only butt welds are on the bottom of each cylinder.. look at the picture.But those butt welds are not subject to ANY
sheer weight from the structure they only allow the vessel to become water tight They are not a structural supports !!

Using #16 shows your lack of cement knowledge. That's a sloppy glue for hack projects...

>>HUH?? do you know how the make cell cast?/
but like I said.. cast is only worth the cost for mass production whereas the material cost is transferred to the consumer.
so.. what happens is the manufactures save money through labor and time but pass the material cost on to the end consumer.
It's in the manufactures benefit to sell cast over extruded.. ya know.. higher profit margin!!
And It also sounds like you don't know how to make an exact hole.. I do..
Fact is..at this point I have several templates for 1 1/2"-8" X1/4 both ID and OD.
I can make a hole for anything I have in stock in less than 3 min a whole.. I may have to sand a little.
FYI..for my purpose the exact OD and ID for a given diameter is pretty constant however extruded is never round..
And my holes are perfectly round
That's my only complaint about the material.

Cast tube is made in a glass mold. There's an ID and an OD mold. Acrylic monomer is poured into these molds, then autoclaved to begin the cure process. These gaps between the two walls of the mold can vary slightly, as can the OD and ID glass molds themselves. So, there are tolerance issues with cast tube.

It's not a matter of charging the consumer excessive amounts, to make more profit. It's a matter of charging for the proper materials. You're more than welcome to use substandard materials. Have at it. I really don't care. There are plenty of other DIYers out there doing this. You're welcome to remain one of them.

>>>And what cementing techniques are you using?
>>capillary and fillet

And your capilarry method is flawed, because you use the simple capillary method, which is a poorer way to do it. And you're using #16 for fillet welds, again, a poor technique.

>>>I'd like to know why butt welding is improper?
>>I shouldn't say improper.. I should've said it's the weakest, shows lack of workmanships shows lack of understanding of structural soundness.. and actually the worst way to join a cylinder to a piece of flat stock.
Fact is ..I shouldn't have to mention this to you.. you should already know this.
IMO any statement to the contrary lessens any creditability you have ..if any..
It's not JUST IMHO.. it's a fact.. butt welds are crap.. but sometimes you gotta use them.

Yes, it's the weakest for other materials, such as wood. I think you're applying your knowledge of carpentry to other materials, of which you don't seem to have a strong understanding.

>>If you looked my note.. the only time where I think cast is worth the dough is for aquariums..But not for the strength.. for the optical clarity and even in those situations the butt welds are supplemented with bracing along the tops.
But in all honesty anyone that thinks butts welds are a structurally preferred method of joining two pieces of material is far below my standards.
There's better ways to join those seams but it's more time consuming and more costly

Then you should talk with Cyro, because they might be enlightened by your knowledge. Maybe they'll hire you to explain to them how extruded is as strong as cast.

>>Regarding cast versus extruded. Extruded tube has a very low molecular weight. In talking with James last week, he pointed out that it's even worse than I had been told. Extruded has 1/25-1/10 of the molecular weight of cast. Both materials absorb water, by the same amount. So, extruded becomes even worse off in respect to it's structural integrity when it's being used to hold water.
Extruded can be used. So can wood. Are either the right material? No. But, if you insist on being cheap and using the wrong materials, have at it.

>>hey yous a funny guy haha
Hey.. I'm not trying to argue that extruded is better or as good as cast.. I know cast is a better material.. I do however think (once again) it's a waste of money for most things in this hobby..
IMO..many wanna be "fabricators" hide their lack of workmanship and knowledge by throwing money at materials.
The original poster complained about the cracks along the the base of a 24" butt welded tube.
Your only explanation was that he used extruded and that was the only cause.. I only pointed out that wasn't the cause.. The way he was instructed to assemble the structure was the true cause..

You're welcome to be as cheap as you want, I personally don't care, as I stated earlier. The original poster had his questions answered. You piped in with your mythinformation that extruded is just as good. It's simply not the case. The cracking he observed was a matter of the inherent stresses in extruded. Period.

>>>Again, describe your cementing technique. Sorry to say it, but I just don't believe that you know what you're talking about.

>>Now tell me what does that have to do with Cast Vs extruded? Butt weld vs insert welds??
Stick to the issues( shaking head)

I did stick to the issue, because specific cementing techniques produce more stress in the seams. Your method if fillet welding induces stress in a seam as the cement cures. The cement shrinks as the solvent vents off through the material, pulling the materials toward each other. And your method of capillary cementing does not provide the proper contact between the materials. Sand all you want, it's not the best way to do it. You're welcome to feel it is. I guess the entire world of plastic fabrication has something to learn from your genius.

>>>It's all great when it blows apart in your house, but not in someone else's.
>>that's interesting.. my reactors are built with 7.0+ earthquakes in mind. are yours??
I can install mine then violently rattle the towers 3" in any direction and the seams won't crack.. will yours?
( I just tried it works like a charm)
Fact is.. mine design in structural soundness simply blows your copies out of the water..
Overall I think my concepts are a bit over your head if they weren't you wouldn't be wasting my time by trying to argue..it's ok I understand you're trying to justify your charges.
In about 5-7 years you'll catch up..

LOL, now you're being funny. Do you know what I charge? So how do you know if I need to justify my charges. I'm not mass-producing products.

And your break test really means nothing. Anything that is assembled well will stand up to that. Drop your product down a flight of stairs? Did it break? Probably not on a weld? Well, good butt welds won't break that way either. A good butt weld, using the proper cementing technique and the proper cement, won't break on the weld either. The material will break first.

I don't need to catch up with your superiority, I know what I'm doing, and what I'm talking about. If your method is so superior, I think more people would be doing it. As it is, I just don't think you know how to properly cement acrylic, so you made up your own method.

>>Any research you've done on the cell vs extruded issue is way overboard for this hobby.
come on.. mole weight ect??
Fact is.. it's not research for this application it's more like a string of urban reef legends.
somebody got suckered into buying a $500 cast reactor and and now it's justify the cost and keep up with the Jones's!
more money means better!
Many try to find fault with the material..I say no.. it's the workmanship and the assembly procedures..
When you UNDERSTAND what you're doing extruded works just fine for this hobby.

I've used extruded in the past. I've seen many products created out of it. Sure it will work. But not for something I'm selling to someone else. It's not a legend, it's simply the truth. And the structural integrity of the material is dependent on its molecular weight, so it's not a moot point.

>>I compare it to the silica vs oolitic sand controversy.
Once somebody says it.. then everyone believes it to be true or false....
tens years later I'll say " I told ya so" never really made much of a difference anyway.
The bottom line is.....sure cast is better than extruded.
However.. for this hobby extruded is good enough.(for the 7th time)
The real advantages are.... cast is easier to work with hold it's shape better and it's has a higher optical quality.
My only intent is to inform the readers of this and other forums the advantages of either material.
I'm currently paying $2/ft for 4"X1/4 extruded tubing ...works for me!!

>>To say extruded is substandard is simply not true..


You've clearly got the need to show people your superior intellect. Have at it. Again, as stated several times, I don't care. You're welcome to share all you want. Personally, I'll stick with what I know to be true, and you can tell everyone how they are wrong. It's a waste of my time to continue arguing with you. The original poster has had his question answered by myself and another poster who works with acrylic on a daily basis. You can play DIY boy all you want from here on out.

BRIAN[/quote]
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brokekyle

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seamaiden":qc18hyhs said:
I know nothing about acrylic fabrication, but I feel that your delivery, brokekyle, is caustic. If you could simply and clearly explain yourself, instead of laying on the condescending attitude you wouldn't meet what you perceive to be resistence.

Also, I think a factor in this argument is not only what you yourself can do, but what the average hobbyist seeking to DIY is capable of. I'm sure you would agree that not everyone has the same skill levels when it .. comes to fabrication techniques.

seamaiden
here we go.. a personality slam..whatever dear (in one ear and out the other)
 
A

Anonymous

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Clearly. You'll get your point across very well by this method, yes? ;)
 

brokekyle

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You can play DIY boy all you want from here on out.
.. diy boy??ooookkkkkk ( I figured you'd start the name calling)
sure thing Mr Instuctor Sir .. anyway and I can tell by the way your jumped over my statment here's where you're having a problem.
And It also sounds like you don't know how to make an exact hole.. I do..
I can make water tight holes insert plugs too.. it's OK.. 1st time I tried it took forever . if ya can't make a tight hole/ insert plug you have no choice you'll have to butt weld..guess you're a flush trim bit queen
(you're busted)
and since your a paid instructor would please tell us/me how it''s done useing only tools found in a home shop ? 8)
TYVM
taking a bow
I'm done with this discussion..
 
A

Anonymous

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No you're not. We've seen far too many like you for far too long on the net to be fooled by that. Besides, you won't be able to help yourself. :lol:

What I still don't get is why you have to take the piss right off the bat.
 

agiacosa

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Brokekyle,

If you believe your design has some benefits over others, simply state it and why. Understand that others will want to understand why this is the case. You should be willing to back up your position with educated responses. In doing so, please do not put down other designs especially those of people with plenty of experience. Believe it or not, there may be some things you have not thought of.

I took Fergy's calcium reactor class and I can assure you that whatever he was paid was too little. Knowing what we paid for the class, Fergy must be making 2 cents an hour based on all the time he put in. He helped many of us understand why things should be done a certain way and showed us proper techniques. He supported his recommendations with facts, experience and literature. In practice, these techniques proved themselves over and over again as the students put together their reactors. In the end, I can tell you that the calcium reactor I put together under Fergy's instruction is one of the best designs I've seen. In addition, because it is built so well, it is obvious that this thing will easily last 10 years.

Therefore, either start a new thread clearly articulating your position and why and allow others to question your design or just stop this thread. It is going no where. I see that you have moved on from Reef Central. I, for one, would not like to see you move on from Reefs.org as I believe you have some knowledge and experience to share.

Regards,

Art
 

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