Surge device design - whaddayathink?
- Thread starter MandarinFish
- Start date
Mandarinfish,
As far as suggestions go: 1" pipe gravity drains very slowly. When I was first building my Carlson surge I tried using 1" for the entire upside down U tube and surge outlet, but it produced a wimpy surge and I had to keep the water flow to the surge bucket cut way back. I had to start over again using 1.5" pipe all the way through the U tube and surge outlet. This produced a pretty nice surge. (my surge is a 4 gallon bucket filled by my Gen-X return pump- see avatar for diagram :lol: )
I think that if any part of your surge pipe is 1" it will limit the flow too much. I don't think that any amount of 2" pipe will counter this limiting factor. I also have a feeling that unless you are going for a HUGE surge (+30gal?), making the entire U tube out of 2" would be too big. Keep in mind that Carlsons need fine tuning to get them to work. They have to drain quickly, they have to let air in to break syphon at just the right time/rate, and after the syphon is broken and the surge starts to refill, they have to let some air vent from the U in order to keep from resyphoning immediately and going into short cycles. You will most likely need a small adjustable air vent right in the middle of what is now your 2" section to break and hold off the syphon between surges.
Some other considerations: Making the surge exit through the side makes the height of the U tube fixed and no longer adjustable on the fly, so you have to guess at how high it should be. With good drainage and syphon break, the water will probably only get about a half inch above the top of the U before it starts to syphon. My surge container happens to be a cylendar so I had to go through the bottom with the bulkhead and I found that it worked well. This allowed me to adjust the height of, and completely switch out my U tube. (all my in-surge plumbing is dry fitted) I also went without the emergency drain, gambling that the main syphon will never be obstructed. It's been working well now for almost a year. IMHO this is the only type of surge that doesn't need one, because there is no valve that can get stuck closed.
That help any?
As far as suggestions go: 1" pipe gravity drains very slowly. When I was first building my Carlson surge I tried using 1" for the entire upside down U tube and surge outlet, but it produced a wimpy surge and I had to keep the water flow to the surge bucket cut way back. I had to start over again using 1.5" pipe all the way through the U tube and surge outlet. This produced a pretty nice surge. (my surge is a 4 gallon bucket filled by my Gen-X return pump- see avatar for diagram :lol: )
I think that if any part of your surge pipe is 1" it will limit the flow too much. I don't think that any amount of 2" pipe will counter this limiting factor. I also have a feeling that unless you are going for a HUGE surge (+30gal?), making the entire U tube out of 2" would be too big. Keep in mind that Carlsons need fine tuning to get them to work. They have to drain quickly, they have to let air in to break syphon at just the right time/rate, and after the syphon is broken and the surge starts to refill, they have to let some air vent from the U in order to keep from resyphoning immediately and going into short cycles. You will most likely need a small adjustable air vent right in the middle of what is now your 2" section to break and hold off the syphon between surges.
Some other considerations: Making the surge exit through the side makes the height of the U tube fixed and no longer adjustable on the fly, so you have to guess at how high it should be. With good drainage and syphon break, the water will probably only get about a half inch above the top of the U before it starts to syphon. My surge container happens to be a cylendar so I had to go through the bottom with the bulkhead and I found that it worked well. This allowed me to adjust the height of, and completely switch out my U tube. (all my in-surge plumbing is dry fitted) I also went without the emergency drain, gambling that the main syphon will never be obstructed. It's been working well now for almost a year. IMHO this is the only type of surge that doesn't need one, because there is no valve that can get stuck closed.
That help any?
This is a 20 gallon TruVu aquarium that I am converting to a surge tank. I don't have a lot of height with this... it can only be put a little ways above the display tank.
Good point about the inches in diameter Marrow. (nice flash by the way; cool band too - I bet you can rip out Willie The Pimp and Baba O'Riley well)
I got this design from a reef zen master who doesn't spend much time on the boards, but has an amazing understanding.
I've seen his sidewall mounted surges in use. They work just fine. The key is the water has to get over a hump, then the pressure drags the rest of the water with it, correct?
Same principal in the sidewall design, minus all the extra plumbing, plus it allows for more water in the chamber due to less displacement by the PVC, correct?
How would I do this? Drill a hole, insert a section of airline tubing, run it to above the waterline, and put a pinch valve on it?
Good point about the inches in diameter Marrow. (nice flash by the way; cool band too - I bet you can rip out Willie The Pimp and Baba O'Riley well)
I got this design from a reef zen master who doesn't spend much time on the boards, but has an amazing understanding.
I've seen his sidewall mounted surges in use. They work just fine. The key is the water has to get over a hump, then the pressure drags the rest of the water with it, correct?
Same principal in the sidewall design, minus all the extra plumbing, plus it allows for more water in the chamber due to less displacement by the PVC, correct?
How would I do this? Drill a hole, insert a section of airline tubing, run it to above the waterline, and put a pinch valve on it?
Thanks Mandarin! Yeah, we can rip out some sort of tunes or another :lol:
So, I'm not sure what you mean by sidewall mounted surge. Does that just refer to the surge bulkhead exiting through the side? If that's it then yes we are describing essentially the same thing. You are correct about the key being getting over the hump.
I chose to go though the bottom because of the curved walls of my surge tank, to make the height of the U completely adjustable, and to reduce the footprint (pipe goes straight out the bottom and into the display tank) Your plumbing will do the exact same thing, but with less of it actually in your surge tank displacing water.
As far as height of surge tank above display tank goes, I think you should be OK with your surge a few inches above your display. 20 gallons at any height should provide a lot of pressure. I at first had my surge tank resting right on top of my display tank and got an adequate surge. It is now sitting about where it is going to end up- about 8 inches above the water. This gave me a little more powerful of a surge, but I had to adjust the air vent all over again for the new height. More height= faster surge + more pipe that has to fill with air to break syphon. I'm guessing that less bubbles will be produced and adjustment will be easier with a larger, shallower surge tank that is not very high above the tank.
For the air vent I had originally drilled a small hole near the intake of the surge pipe, but I ended up cutting and drilling every spare piece of 1.5" PVC I had trying to adjust the size and height of the air hole. I now have an extra 1.5" PVC Tee instead of that hole. The Tee has a short piece of 1.5" pipe that sticks off to the side that is capped. I drilled a small hole through the side of the cap and pipe, and then twisted the cap on the pipe for adjustment. I can also turn the cap AND the pipe together to adjust how high the hole is. You can probably accomplish the same thing any number of ways- the airline tubing sounds pretty good. You will want to be able to adjust the size and the height of the hole.
The only problem I can see with that big of a surge is that your main tank overflows have to be able to handle it. You don't have to drain the entire surge tank though, maybe make the tank into a 'fuge with the top several inches surging. I added a small light to the top of my surge bucket, and now It is just COVERED with coralline algae, limpets, snails and coralline eating starfish. What's your plan?
So, I'm not sure what you mean by sidewall mounted surge. Does that just refer to the surge bulkhead exiting through the side? If that's it then yes we are describing essentially the same thing. You are correct about the key being getting over the hump.
I chose to go though the bottom because of the curved walls of my surge tank, to make the height of the U completely adjustable, and to reduce the footprint (pipe goes straight out the bottom and into the display tank) Your plumbing will do the exact same thing, but with less of it actually in your surge tank displacing water.
As far as height of surge tank above display tank goes, I think you should be OK with your surge a few inches above your display. 20 gallons at any height should provide a lot of pressure. I at first had my surge tank resting right on top of my display tank and got an adequate surge. It is now sitting about where it is going to end up- about 8 inches above the water. This gave me a little more powerful of a surge, but I had to adjust the air vent all over again for the new height. More height= faster surge + more pipe that has to fill with air to break syphon. I'm guessing that less bubbles will be produced and adjustment will be easier with a larger, shallower surge tank that is not very high above the tank.
For the air vent I had originally drilled a small hole near the intake of the surge pipe, but I ended up cutting and drilling every spare piece of 1.5" PVC I had trying to adjust the size and height of the air hole. I now have an extra 1.5" PVC Tee instead of that hole. The Tee has a short piece of 1.5" pipe that sticks off to the side that is capped. I drilled a small hole through the side of the cap and pipe, and then twisted the cap on the pipe for adjustment. I can also turn the cap AND the pipe together to adjust how high the hole is. You can probably accomplish the same thing any number of ways- the airline tubing sounds pretty good. You will want to be able to adjust the size and the height of the hole.
The only problem I can see with that big of a surge is that your main tank overflows have to be able to handle it. You don't have to drain the entire surge tank though, maybe make the tank into a 'fuge with the top several inches surging. I added a small light to the top of my surge bucket, and now It is just COVERED with coralline algae, limpets, snails and coralline eating starfish. What's your plan?
The 'fuge-surge combo has been something I've considered, but never as well conceived and basic as your idea... just add light.
This may sound weird... but it could be a great place for some cave hanging corals.
I might try a frag in there to see what happens.
How big a hole should I need on the 2" tube (remembering that it goes up to a 1")? What's the key to tuning that?
This may sound weird... but it could be a great place for some cave hanging corals.
I might try a frag in there to see what happens.
How big a hole should I need on the 2" tube (remembering that it goes up to a 1")? What's the key to tuning that?
Last night I got my 52 gallon Carlson Surge Device running on my 225 tank, but am running into the same problemd everyone else runs into with these....the sihpon doesnt break all the way. Im using 2" PVC for the discharge, and the tank is filling at a rate of 600GPH. Im going to try the air tube at the top of the U and run it down to almost the bottom of the intake. I does do a great surge though!
Attachments
You can drill a hole in the bottom 45 degree elbow to fix your problem. I usually drill a 3/16" hole. Drilling a hole in the top of the loop and connecting airline will work just as well, but it's a bit complicated.
FWIW, you can plumb it differently to lessen the air bubbles discharged as well. Check out this article wriiten by the good Dr. Carlson himself:
http://www.breeders-registry.gen.ca.us/ ... /surge.htm
FWIW, you can plumb it differently to lessen the air bubbles discharged as well. Check out this article wriiten by the good Dr. Carlson himself:
http://www.breeders-registry.gen.ca.us/ ... /surge.htm
Anyone have a drawing of where to cut holes, and diameters, to make sure my surge gets a siphon break?
Is the plan to drill a hole near the bottom of the surge intake tube?
Help explain please; drawings or diagrams (no matter how crude) are most welcome...
Is the plan to drill a hole near the bottom of the surge intake tube?
Help explain please; drawings or diagrams (no matter how crude) are most welcome...
I am going to cover the surge tank with a sheet of plexi or lexan.
Hopefully that will help dampen the sound, since it's all generated inside the surging tank.
Aslo, mine is getting set up inside an armoire, which will hopefully help deaden sound too.
Hopefully that will help dampen the sound, since it's all generated inside the surging tank.
Aslo, mine is getting set up inside an armoire, which will hopefully help deaden sound too.
I see... so it does flush, you just deal with it.
I'm curious if there exists an "elegant" solution, like
the Durso pipe for the overflow... unfortunately I'm not a hidraulic engineer (if such a thing exists), so I wouldn't know where to start.
Regards,
Mihai
I'm curious if there exists an "elegant" solution, like
the Durso pipe for the overflow... unfortunately I'm not a hidraulic engineer (if such a thing exists), so I wouldn't know where to start.
Regards,
Mihai
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