Apogon margaritophorus / leptacanthus - spawnings + videos

[mpedersen]

It's 11:10 pm central time - the Lattice Cardinals have again spawned. This time, male #2 (our extremely poor track record male) was the lucky bachelor. We missed the spawning within a 30 second window of taking our eyes off the tank while looking at another. I had said to Renee, "the cardinals are gonna spawn". We looked at our pair of porcelain crabs, she turned back and there's the male with a massive orange mass of eggs - he looks like he's CHOKING...spitting them halfway out then taking them back in.

Within roughly 5 minutes, we watched him eat the ENTIRE BATCH!

I'm starting to think that we're gonna have to shade the sides of the tank, or maybe even the WHOLE THING, when we notice spawning activity - I'm somewhat convinced that this immediate egg-eating was a direct result of all the immediate attention placed on the spawning pair....otherwise man, what a horrible breeder we have in male #2!

On the upside, I have video within 1 minute post-spawn. It even shows him starting to consume the mass AND shows eggs fluttering about in the tank current. I ALSO got vid and pics of the TINY eggs from these guys...I'd say 1mm??

Well, after writing all this I've turned around and given male #2 a closer look..it appears that he's still holding a small amount of eggs in his mouth...his throat is still distended even though there are clearly not enough eggs to be causing the enlargement. It looked as though they made a few more "dry passes" over a horizontal flat rock...I opted to turn out the lights ASAP in the hopes that maybe he still has some and maybe he'll hold on them!

I'll post pics and vids as soon as I can!

Matt

 

[mpedersen]

Alrighty, vids and pics of the Post Spawn Apogon margaritophorus but first a couple observations.

I'm sad to report that male #2 has failed us again...he's eating as of this morning (the 11th).

So, we missed the spawning within roughly a 30 second window of not looking at the tank...although it doesn't confirm my suspicions, it bolsters my hypothesis that the female lays the entire egg mass in one shot...i.e. out comes a lump of eggs, not a series of single eggs. The male likely fertilizes the mass, then picks the whole thing up. This is what I'm trying to catch on video...it'll happen, it has to given enough time.

The next interesting observation is that these eggs appear MUCH smaller than those of our Bangaii's..probably on the order of 1/4 to 1/8th the size of the egg of Pterapogon kaudernii. This leads me to two thoughts. First, these babies are gonna be SMALL (glad I started culturing rotifers). Second, I suspect that the incubation period could be considerably shorter than that of Pterapogon kaudernii...perhaps our male who went 11 days actually held them full term?

On to the vids. The first video is perhaps the most interesting to date; shot less than 5 minutes after the spawning, the male is starting to consume the egg mass. you'll notice a "puff" of eggs and catch a very quick glimpse of the egg mass in the vid (it looks like it was captured in just 1 frame, so 1/24th of a second or so).

Vid #1 - margaritophorus_1-10-06_immediate_post_spawn.html

The 2nd vid is a free-floating egg of Apogon margaritophorus - it came out in his chomping and briefly rested on a frond of Caulerpa.

Vid #2 - http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/margaritophorus_1-10-06_egg.html

Finally, a picture with scale of the "Free floating egg" in video #1. My appologies but it was the best I could come up with on such short notice and I didn't want to disturb the tank further. Each increment on the ruler is 1/32"

Anyone with any helpful suggestions on how to stop the egg-eating behavior, I'm all for it!

MP

 

[mpedersen]

Alrighty, so in a nutshell, this time our Bangaiis stole the spotlight and spawned behind my back; there was some urgent posting on Reef Central earlier at http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... did=750125

The other big news, a lot of you will surely flip - I kinda "fell into" a male/female pair of Green Mandarins. They're very happy in their new homes although I'm definitely thinking I'm going to have to ramp up my Copepod cultures. That's right - 14 fish in a 24 gallon cube. It is a fiasco of a tank, that's for sure. Bottom line, I got into this to try to control our flatworm plague - I jokingly mentioned to the LFS that if he could get me a pair, even better. His comment back - since he's opened the shop he hasn't seen a female. Figure he'd find one - considering that Xenia pretty much paid for the pair in trade..well...lets just hope they eat some flatworms considering finding the Blue Velvet Nudibranchs has proven to be more than your average pain.

Oh, and lets not forget the other tankmates - the Firefish male is hiding more than normal (left the bolthole ONCE today)...do we have a spawn going there? The Greenbanded Gobies, whom I assumed were both males, I'm not so sure now. Yesterday I caught some interesting behavior between the two on vid. If any of it's worthy I'll post it up with my next round. It was mentioned by a breeder on Reef Central that in his experience he's had "too good of luck" simply pairing two fish for them NOT to be sequential hermaphrodites - so maybe I've got a pair going here too????

Back to the bangaiis - To sum it up, I should start out by noting that for the first time in a couple week we ran the tanks at night WITHOUT the "moonlights" on. So far it seems like lighting changes are indeed a positive trigger for spawning amoung the cardinalfish (assuming they're ready to spawn already). While I'm not tracking the lighting schedule at this point, I'm thinking I may need to start tracking it and noting when I change things...in other words try to find a correlation.

Around noon I noticed that things had gotten really 'hot and heavy' - the female's aggression level was "sky high" towards the other cardinalfish in the tank. She was coming up alongside the male, parallel, vibrating for 3-5 seconds at a time, pausing for a couple seconds and switching sides, then vibrating / tremoring again. The frequency of her vibration is such that it seems faster than the 24 FPS video can truly capture.

I did some posting to the Reef Central Fish Breeding Board as it seems to be by far the most active - did I have minutes, hours, or days to wait before they'd actually spawn? Well, while posting back and forth they did it right behind my back - I guess they don't like an audience! The actual time of spawning is somewhere between 1:46 and 1:51 PM central time (timestamp on the camera, not that it matters all that much). That's the time differential between the last video I shot prior to spawning and the video I shot immediately upon noticing the spawn had occured.

So it's now 11:20 PM and he's still holding. I'm going to go through the videos soon and get them up possibly tonight, but more likely sometime MONDAY (yes, I'm out of town for a portion of this weekend again).

STAY TUNED - based on my calculations the Margaritophorus should spawn on Monday, maybe Tuesday

MP

 

[mpedersen]

Alrighty, 2 bangaii vids plus a bonus goby vid!

First, about 80 minutes pre-spawn, the female constantly switching sides and vibrating.

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/1 ... tions.html

Next up, less than 10 minutes post spawn, the female spastically 'attacking' the male (for lack of a better description).

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/1 ... astic.html

And finally, from yesterday, a short video of possible "courtship" behavior amoung what I thought (until this point) were two male Greenbanded Gobies.

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/g ... tship.html

Enjoy!

MP

 

[mpedersen]

Well, that brood lasted a whopping 24 hours before the male dropped 'em or ate 'em....

MP

 

[mpedersen]

We had another unsuccessful spawning of Apogon margaritophorus last night (1-16/17-06). I got it on VIDEO! These are quicktime format - I don't have time to convert them to Flash and compress them.

In a nutshell, I started shooting video at 10:19 PM last night. A lot of heavy courtship, circling and vibrating between the female and male #2. Shortly before 12:00, the ovipositor appeared on the female A. margaritophorus and soon thereafter, eggs started to appear.

Knowing how quickly they've done it in the past, I expected it to take almost no time once things finally got underway. However, by 12:25 AM this morning there were still eggs hanging from her belly, and all three "chunks" off the egg mass that the male took from her belly were EATEN IMMEDIATELY. I'm going to chalk it up to WAY too much distrubance in and out of the tank.

So, here ya go - 10 videos of an UNSUCCESSFUL spawning of Apogon margaritophorus . The total file size, should you download all 10, is around 149 MB and they make up around 10 minutes in length.

Courtship & "False runs"? - 1-16-06 - 10:28 PM
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0461good.MOV

Ovipositor is down - 1-16-06 - 11:52 PM
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0499gg.MOV

Male takes a small chunk of white eggs from the female's abdomen - 1-17-06 - 12:03 AM
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/D ... stbite.MOV

Male takes another chunk of eggs - 1-17-06 - 12:06 AM
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/D ... ndbite.MOV

Female's dorsal seems to "pump" as she tries to push out the eggs - 1-17-06 - 12:09 AM
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0511push.MOV

Something brings out the snails, perhaps the male released sperm? - 1-17-06 - 12:10 AM
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/D ... lspush.MOV

Three vids of the female with her ever-growing large egg mass:
1-17-06 - 12:18 AM, 12:19 AM and 12:21 AM respectively.
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/D ... igeggs.MOV
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/D ... geggs2.MOV
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/D ... geggs3.MOV

The male takes another chunk of eggs from the female's abdomen and devours them immediately (compare his size now to his girth at the start of this video series) - 1-17-06 - 12:22 AM
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0522bite3.MOV

 

[mpedersen]

Another Bangaii Cardinalfish Spawn this afternoon! 21 days after the last one. The time between the first and 2nd spawn was 22 days. All three spawns have occured in early afternoon (i.e. 2 - 4 pm central time).

I have an egg tumbler built this time around..will probably try artificial incubation and see where that gets us!

cross those fingers!

MP

 

[mpedersen]

11:45 PM, I'm looking at a fat mouthful in the male Bangaii when I get the surprise of the week - We've had our first spawning of Apogon leptacanthus today as well! These guys REALLY, I mean REALLY threw me for a loop - the male is the "DINK" in the group with short fins. IF this holds true, our group is 2F/1M!!!

I did get some courtship vids....but we were out this evening so no chance of capturing the spawn. I only really noticed it when I noticed the "female" (who, is most likely a "MALE") wasn't eating. Then I noticed the slight "expansion" in the jaw.

So, anyone else spawned A. leptacanthus? In our pair, the FEMALE is later, longer fins, more colorful. The male is smaller, shorter fins, and less colorful. I GUESS I should have made the connection earlier, as usually in the Cardinals the female does all the work getting the MALE in the mood...no different in Apogon leptacanthus.

Now, the real question, WHICH SET OF CARDINALFISH do I make the effort to save? I have a bangaii male with a mouthfull who's on his third spawn, hasn't held longer than 4 days..do I tumble the bangers and give the A. leptacanthus a chance to brood naturally?

Well, I made the decision; I figure I'll let the Threadfin Male have a fair shake at incubating the eggs naturally first....he deserves at least a couple shots at it! Meanwhile the male Bangaii is 0/2 and darnit, I'd like to scratch Pterapogon kaudernii off the list...so time to try the egg tumbler!

So caught the male Bangaii with surprisingly minimal effort. He spit the egg mass in the net without too much agitation. I checked his mouth to see if there were any left..nope. Back in he went.

So these eggs were produced around 3:20 pm today..it's just over 9 hours later. The are basically CLEAR with a tan/beige/slightly salmon pink oilspot at the "top"...one solid egg mass, and with the "oil dot" at the top, they definitely have an "orientation"...they're all floating, en mass, "oil dot up", and all oil dots within the individual eggs within the mass are oriented the same way.

My only reservation is that the eggs all STICK TOGETHER in one mass...ordinarily we set the flow on a Cichlid Egg Tumbler to be strong enough to vibrate the eggs but NOT strong enough to lift them off the bottom mesh. In this case, there really isn't any "vibration" as all the eggs are stuck together! I have it set that they're literally hovering within 1-2 mm of the bottom 99% of the time...one in a while a current from outside the tumbler will come up through the bottom and push the eggs up a little more, but they soon settle and are in no danger of being crushed at the top screen. My ONLY worry is that perhaps even this "neutrally boyant" movement is still too much...it's a fine line in artifical incubation.

Thoughts?

Matt

 

[mpedersen]

More vids and what the heck, I'll post them here. All these vids are FLASH format (get the plugin at http://www.macromedia.com).

Pterapogon kauderii - Bangaii Cardinalfish Courtship
This one turned our pretty nice, so I wanted to include it.

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_bangaii_courtship.html

Apogon leptacanthus - aka. Threadfin, Longspine, Blue Eyed, White, or Glass Cardinalfish (yeah, I've seen MANY different common names applied)

These next two vids are of courtship. Again, up until this first spawn I believed I had 2 males and 1 female. Well, what I THOUGHT was the male courting I should have known better...the larger fish with longer fins shown in this video is the FEMALE. She is courting the smallest one in our group of 3, who turned out to be a MALE?! As far as sexual dimorphism goes, this is kinda backwards from most, but it could simply be based on limited mate availability in this captive situation.

There's a couple really important behaviors to watch for. The first is the side-by-side twitching which seems to be common amoung all three of the cardinalfish species we've spawned. In this particular case, the female "flicks" her fins much like a Firefish normally does when swimming. There is no discernable "vibrations" (like what you see in Pterapogon kauderii).

The other behavior that is NEW is the "soar" for lack of a better term. I've seen throat bulging, side-by-side twitching, and nudging go on between this pair of fish on numerous occasions. However, I have not seen the "soar". In both videos it occurs towards the end, the female making broad circles out in front of the male. My earlier description I inverted the "fins" - the female clamps all fins on her ventral side while leaving the dorsal fins semi erect. It's wierd, but it seems like she's trying to show off her big fat belly to the male.

Also, note that in these vids, the belly is distended (a common sign that spawning is IMMINENT in the next couple hours). It appears that her ovipositor has dropped. Unfortunately, I don't have an exact spawning time on these guys...it was an afternoon event and well, we went out for dinner! Next time maybe.

Without further delay, 2 vids of pre-spawn courtship behavior in Apogon leptacanthus!

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_soar1.html

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_soar2.html

And what the heck, the proof that this wasn't just pair-bonding or aggression, here's the male with the female (as well as a brief start with the "spare" fish). Look at the mouthful of eggs!

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/2-3-06_threadfin_postspawn.html

Next up, one of the best pics I've gotten in the former "clam" tank - the pair of Bangers and the pair of Threadfins, both with mouthbrooding males.

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0644_mouthbrooding_cardinals.jpg


One last picture and I'm callin' it a "weekend" unless something else happens. The new bangaii eggs in the egg tumbler. My apologies but the 1" tubing connection is only transluscent, so the eggs can't get in any better focus!

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN0649_bangaii_eggs.jpg

So...we've spawned Pterapogon kaudernii, Apogon margaritophorus, Apogon leptacanthus and the Green Banded Gobies. All that's left to "do it" are the Firefish (which I think have been spawning all along) and the Mandarins (which are still in "training" to take prepared foods...thus separated and not able to spawn...yet!). All that in a 24 gallon nano cube.

Granted, raising the larvae is a totally different feat

FWIW,

MP

 

[VioletMan]

what is this all about?

 

[VioletMan]

what is this all about?

 

[mpedersen]

Breeding Cardinalfish my man...

MP

 

[mpedersen]

Male Apogon leptacanthus, on the evening of the 8th day post spawning.

LIGHTS OUT tonight, just after 12:15 AM on the 12th, and 30 minutes later there are larvae of Apogon leptacanthus running around!

It looks like they have a bit of "reserves", looking something like a "P" turned 90 degrees clockwise...just a touch larger than the mystery Goby larvae!

So that's a LARVAE release just after dark on day 8! There's the brood time!

Unfortunately, I think we lost a LOT of the larvae..I bet many were immediately EATEN as well as the fact that they don't appear positively phototrophic (I had to collect MOST with a brine nauplii net...many in the specimen cup look damaged).

Rotifers and Phyto in the morning!? I'll get some pictures if I can....

Our latest A. margaritophorus spawn lasted only 48 hours before the male consumed it...

MP

 

[mpedersen]

3 images of newly released Apogon leptacanthus larvae. Did the best I could - these were shot by collecting a viable larvae, placing on a microscope slide resting atop a LED flashlight, with the macro mode of a Nikon CP5700. Best I can do for now folks! These images have only been retouched for contrast and levels...nothing else "tweaked" here!

I'd say all told we have maybe 5-10 viable larvae to work with...the rest look all bent up and dead, most likely a result from trying to harvest with a brine shrimp net. A FEW were cupped out early on and well, the numbers definitely correlate to those caught by cupping vs. netting.

LESSON LEARNED - don't use a net, cup 'em out or siphon them or something...their little bodies are just too fragile!

MP

 

[Anonymous]

I'm really enjoying your pictures, please keep them coming. Good luck with the larvae!

 

[mpedersen]

Thanks Guy! Looks like we have around 9-10 viable larvae...the rest are DOA on the bottom still so they'll get cleaned out before I put the rotifers in.

MP