I'm so tired of paying full retail!

[davelin315]

It seems that for the first time in this thread, I am in agreement with JennM. MaryHM, your information is very much appreciated, and sounds to me to be very accurate. I am not saying that anything I said was wrong, but perhaps some of the terminology was incorrect (ooh, that pains me to say I was almost wrong!

). As far as the price being affected by the source, specifically in my case being Indonesia/Bali, I was unaware of the fact that the fish are more likely to be drug caught. Once again, though, I must mention that never did I say it was unfair that there is a large markup (whatever that markup may be for the actual retailer versus what I was trying to talk about - perhaps unsuccessfully, the markup for the consumer from the price out of the ocean), it's just unfair when there is a HUGE markup. Thanks again, MaryHM for the enlightening information.

 

[monkeyboy]

Honestly lowering the price of salt in the store isn't going to generate as much business as one would think, the turnover would be only slightly higher from bargain shoppers closing in. When you need salt, you need salt.
So if you feel that a LFS is really overcharging (by other LFS's prices not online fish warehouses) then dont shop there and let them know why.I think now that we've gotten other perspectives on this issue it shows that LFS's, for the most part, don't go out of their way to rob the public!

 

[MaryHM]

I think some of you don't understand the concept of the "Chain of Custody", for marine ornamentals, and are confusing exporters and wholesalers. As a wholesaler, I'm more than happy to give you some insight.

1. That Bali list someone posted shows prices from an exporter in Bali. Those prices do not include various charges that are added such as Packing ($10 per box), Clearing ($8 per box), CITES ($10 per box), Freight ($3.70+ per kg). These prices are averages for a 30+ box order.

2. The exporter sells those fish to an importer in Los Angeles. At that point, two things can happen.
a. The fish go to a wholesaler, who tanks the fish at a facility. Facilities generate a lot of overhead (electrical, payroll, water, rent, vehicles to transport animals to the airport and back, etc...).
b. The fish go to a transshipper who reoxygenates the fish, adds a markup, and ships them directly to a retailer. This method causes the actual price of the fish to be cheaper to the retailer, but the mortalities are tremendous- especially when being shipped to the east coast.

Since there are only a few cities in the country (LA, New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Miami, and a couple others) that allow direct import of marine ornamentals from overseas, probably less that one quarter of 1% of retailers are able to purchase fish directly from exporters. And if they are in a city where they can directly import, they must buy 30+ boxes to get the freight rates I posted earlier. Very few stores can accomodate 30 boxes of fish.

3. Whichever method the retailer chooses, he has to pay a markup to the importer and then freight charges which average $.65 per lb. On transship, the retailer will eat the mortalities because there are no guarantees- and like I said earlier the mortalities are huge with transship- those mortalities (price of animals and freight) have to be figured into the price of the animals that survive. When buying from a wholesaler, the retailer will have less mortalities, but is paying the higher cost of purchasing fish that have actually been tanked prior to shipout. Although mortalities are less, there are always mortalities, and again those costs must be figured into the surviving animals.

Now my next point. Fish coming from Indonesia are notorious for being drug caught. That's why the fish are cheaper than they are from countries which only use nets (Fiji, Solomon Islands, etc...). The mortality on those "cheap" damsels will be extremely high. I purchase my damsels from the Solomon Islands- they're more expensive, but it's worth it in the long run. Solomons knows how to pack fish also. Those damsels from Bali will be packed in tiny bags with a couple of tablespoons of water so they can cram as many as possible in a box and get the freight charges down. Guess what that leads to?? Even higher mortalities! The Solomons take that hand caught damsel that I pay a little more for and pack it in a proper size bag with enough water to keep the animal healthy. Guess what that leads to?? Higher freight charges on a more expensive fish! But it's worth it.

Something else to understand is that you can never compare Wal Mart/grocery stores to an LFS. Canned corn and paper towels do not die. They can be shipped the cheapest way possible because it doesn't matter if it takes 2 weeks to get them from point a to point b. They don't have to be fed and properly taken care of. They can sit on a shelf for years. Not so with live animals.

I'm not saying that some LFS aren't greedy- there are those types of stores. But believe me, they are the vast majority. So now I hope you understand a little better why that $.20 cent damsel ends up costing you $8 by the time it goes through the chain of custody.

 

[MattM]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by llowwelll:
<STRONG>... On the other hand, I'm not familiar with the local economic climate where you are. It might be perfectly reasonable.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the PetCo down the street from me sells it for $20.99, my price of $19.95 is quite reasonable.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

<STRONG>...Do you think if you lowered the price, you might sell more volume and reap more net profit overall?</STRONG>

In a word, No. Let's say we sell 20 bags a month at $19.95. If we reduced the price to $14.99 we would have to sell 49 bags to make the same gross profit. Is there a market for us to sell 49 bags a month, each and every month. I don't think there is.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

<STRONG>I would be turned off and be somewhat motivated to look for another lfs.</STRONG>

Not after you saw our store and compared it to the others in the area.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

<STRONG>So that makes me wonder if lfs's are able to sell high-priced products to fairly naive, beginner customers but have more difficulty unloading those products on more experienced hobbyists?</STRONG>

Maybe some do, but I can't imagine they develop many long-term customers that way. We turn "naive beginners" into experienced reef keepers. That's why we do things like our seminar series. I've always found that's the best way to build a loyal customer base and that's where we make money - by having customers that don't even consider shopping elsewhere. I can't speak for other stores, but we sell the most expensive items to those who are the most experienced hobbyists. Not many beginners are pluncking down the bucks for aquacontrollers, calcium reactors, etc.

This is a bit of a one-sided opinion though - I would guess that very few stores who are out to make a quick buck on the unsuspecting newbie spend much time posting advice on internet boards.

 

[Carpentersreef]

(bump)

It's been 9 months, and I've seen a lot of new names...

Thought it was worth reminding people... :wink:

Mitch

 

[toptank]

Normally would not post in this kind of subject matter but in this case I would like to.

I am a online retailer that strated my business about 6 months ago. One reason I did this was to try to provide a alteritive of buying from some of those very high store front LFS. Yes they have the overhead that in some cases I do not, such as payrol and rent. But I do have a lot of overhead beside those things. Example, the day I go to LA to pick out my clams, I get up at 4AM and get to LA at 6:30AM if I don't run into a traffic problem. Wait for the WS store to open at 7:30 am and start to pick out my clams. Waiting for them to get things pack up and back to San Diego another 2.5 hrs. Set up acclimations containers and start to unpack clams. It take me about 3-5 hrs to acclimate 40-50 clams and then place into tank. Later that night, start to take pictures to post on my web site with descriptions, size and price. I normally get to bed about midnight. That is a 20 hr day.

Check tanks everyday for correct chemistry, doing water changes, cleaning powerheads, doing top offs, etc. That is a 7 day job.

Taking order via e-mail and telephone, making up invoices, running CC info, packing up livestock to be shipped and then driving to FedEx. Send out tracking numbers to customers, doing follow-up with deliveries.

And most important when dealing with this type of product we do have loses due to many reason, one could be shipping stress, fast acclimation on the customers part and chemistry in their tank out of wack so we have to give store credit on loses. I can only speak for my business but I do not have a way to pass the loses off to drygood or other things.

Haven't paid myself a check since the doors opened up. The profit as low as it is, goes back into the business to provide better equipment and better speciment for the customer. We are always updating or shipping material.

So when you think about these suppliers ripping you off as some have said then I would incourage you to start up your own company and give it a shot, I think you will find out that you will never get rich as some have stated above.

No doubt that there are some LFS that so take advantage and make their product way too high but then you don't have to shop there. Not trying to sell online shopping but in most cases you will save money and you will be getting a much better product as most of these online companies are also in the hobby as well and in most cases their holding tanks and equipment is much better than the average LFS. I know they are for the most part better kept.

Sorry for the long post, but some people think that online or even some LFS are ripping you off and getting rich, not the case at all. Be glad that there are some great online vendors out there that are willing to take some of their time to provide you with some great livestock and yes that good customers service that goes with it. If it wasn't for the online stores then you will still have to pay some of those very high cost for animals at the LFS.

There are some great online shops out there such as FFE, Dr Mac, lonestarcoral and others as well.

Barry

 

[reefsRcool]

ok. i have read this post and figure i will add my .02 from what i have experianced. I got into this hobby out in detroit when i moved to NH I was so repulsed by what i found at the lfs i got evrything by mail. then i found inland reef in nashua NH and man, there are probably better deals to be found, but i won't even look. when you find a good store just spend the money and stop bitching about it. just for gigles lets look at this from the other side how much do you have invested in your tank? how much have you saved by going MO? if you had no lfs wouldn't you gladly pay that amount just for the privalage of running in for some RO water and much needed advice because your tank is crashing and you are about to kill everything? sure drive the bad ones out of buisness, they have no right to stay profitable, but seek out and support the good guys. do you not sit in a resteraunt because takout saves you the tip money? it's a service industry, accept that and pay for it.

 

[dragon0121]

This thread has been an entertaining read! Understanding the total cost of ownership for a LFS, and not having a gripe about paying the bills, I have the following question. Does charging $16.99 lb(LFS price) for Live Rock constitute a rip off? That means the 88lb box of Show sized rock(roughly $250) I ordered from Paragon, transshipped to my local airport ($55 shipping), would have cost me $1495 !!!. This is so outrageous, I think people that pay that price, deserve to be ripped off! I just shake my head and laugh up my sleeve. :lol: A fool and his money are soon parted, so goes the saying.

 

[Reef Fever]

Geez, Dragon!!!!

$16.99 /lb. Live Rock? Are you supposed to smoke it or what?

 

[MattM]

...I think people that pay that price, deserve to be ripped off!

Yes, they do. We charge $5.95 / lb.

 

[vpham97]

Something else to understand is that you can never compare Wal Mart/grocery stores to an LFS. Canned corn and paper towels do not die. They can be shipped the cheapest way possible because it doesn't matter if it takes 2 weeks to get them from point a to point b.

I work at a Wal-Mart Distribution center, paper towels do not die, but I see lot of boxes get damaged. Many peoples(that are paid very well) and machinery handle that same box of paper towels from the manufacture to the actual store. One of the priority of the distribution center is in getting our goods from the warehouse to the store, as fast as possible. Items are loaded up for delivery to the store the day it's received, or the day after.

$16.99 /lb. Live Rock? Are you supposed to smoke it or what?

There's a store 25 miles from me that charge $20 a pound for OLD, corraline & aitapsia cover rock from their OLD main display tank. Just 20 pounds, and I would be over in my reef budget.

This is so outrageous, I think people that pay that price, deserve to be ripped off! I just shake my head and laugh up my sleeve. A fool and his money are soon parted, so goes the saying.

Some "reefers" that have corals in their tank don't even know what a skimmer is. They just pay the Aquarium Service guy $100 or more per month to come and take care of their tank.

 

[Anonymous]

Can't believe I missed this thread for so long. Anyways, I have company on the way, so I can;t get through the entire thread but Joe, not all LFS's in CT are like you say in your original post :lol:

Marine Imports (the store in Shelton) is a great place. I like Phill very much and I used to buy from him before I took this to the next level. He's very friendly and at the time had one great looking place. But as someone else mentioned, his kid employees were rocking him. He has a full time job and had to leave for it by a certain time each day and sometimes his employees just wouldn't show up at all so he'd have to close shop for the day. Someone told me recently that the place had some troubles recently as far as appearance, but I'm sure it will be back on track soon.

World Wide Pet Supply was the place in Naugy. I thought they had finally, deservedly (IMHO) closed down but alas, they've just changed names and locations I would imagine to get rid of their rep and start the whole, sad, ball rolling again.

I'm gonna post again once I can read the entire thread.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm glad someone brought this post back up, as I missed it the first time through. Interesting discussion on the interworkings of the LFS and MO buisness.

LFS's - I support my LFS's, some more than others, and I like to buy all off my livestock from LFS's. I like to see my animals before I buy them. I do buy drygoods online occasionly, but it sure is convieneint to just pick it up on the way home. Takes 10 minutes to pick up the IO you need for this weekend's WC. That's worth the extra $, IMHO.

Misinformation, and a willingness to sell a fish or coral to whom ever is asking about it is the only problem I have with LFS's. Then, when you return the flame angel (or whatever), you get a 50% in-store credit. Gemme a break, don't sell it to me if you know it is most likely is not gonna work out for me. (and yes, I talk to the LFS's about what I'm thinking about buying and my tanks size, etc, etc,..)

That's is my only gripe about some of the LFS's in my area. I still buy something from all of them though because they all help me out in some way when I began in this hobby. The one's who misdirected me don't get much (if any) business as the one's that did not. I feel that I owe them something for coming in a gazing at the tanks and asking questions.

Come on guy's, support the good LFS's you have. Or they won't be there for you when you need them. Screw the bad ones!

None of you guy's taught yourself's everything about reefkeepking from a book!

My .02 cents!

Louey

 

[Anonymous]

Holy cow! Obviously some are really clueless when it comes to what it takes to run a business! If things were as much of a cake walk as some make it out to be, I can't figure out why there isn't an LFS on every street corner!

My business was setup with the intention of not being a non-profit business. Maybe some day it will actually turn a profit but for now I'm just praying that I will break even this year. With 4 complete orders dieing before they even got to me at the beginning of the year due to crap stock and careless airlines (over a few hundred pieces alone, and no claim was ever honored) it's not looking like that will be an attainable goal this year. But that's how the cafeteria cookie bounces.

LOL, any who think this industry is a picnic, let's be partners. I could use you to entertain myself as I balance the books.

There's a lot to be said for being to go to an LFS at a moments notice on a saturday afternoon and pick up whatever you need that instant, especially when it can't wait five days to be shipped.

 

[MandarinFish]

WalMart keeps prices down by using child sweatshop labor in developing countries, keeping journalists and other investigators out of their sweatshops which have armed guards, then putting a smiley face and an American flag on their stuff. http://www.main.org/alliance/walmart.htm

Ain't capitalism grand?

And before you start with that "well, at least the kids have jobs" market-slavery thinking, those kids belong in schools. Which, yes, developing countries have.

Walmart sucks.

Support your local LFS when and where you can, negotiate with them where you can, and go online for other stuff. Get supplies from local non-Home Despot hardware stores (they refused to sign a moratorium on old growth forest products). http://www.homedepotsucks.com/

If you don't support your local LFS, you won't have one. Shop carefully, of course and look for deals - there are many to be had. Travel when you can to other shops. Or else you won't have a local LFS where we can bargain, run by hobbyists.

You'll only have PetCo where teenaged idiots massacre fish, mammals, birds, and reptiles by the ton.

Shop responsibly. Just because you can save a nickel somewhere doesn't mean you should. Be informed. Keep your conscience.

Maybe try to buy online with others in a mass order to save shipping charges, or save up and make a big purchase all at once.

There are ways to save cash. :wink:

 

[meatbar4]

I looked at the Walmart online catalog. The RO unit there was $198.00 or so. Is this the one to which you refer?
Thx
CC

A few things that I save money on is RO water and Kalk, I use the RO water machine at Wall-mart, it's perfect, I've tested it for phosphates and its completely at 0, the refills are only .33 cents a gallon, for Kalkwasser you can use the pickling lime, it's the same thing and its under 2 bucks at Wall-mart.

 

[Dewman]

I may be a sucker, but when I recently upgraded my 29 to a 75 Gal, I went to my lfs for an icecap 660 and endcaps, bulbs etc...
I think I could have gotten the same setup, with four 48" bulbs for $110 cheaper on line at Champion Lighting.
BUT, I didn't... Here's why!

My LFS has been my #1 source of FREE information. That's right folks, people say nothing is free in this world. They're wrong. If you have an LFS like mine (i am fortunate) then you are lucky. They have provided me with outstanding service and loads of information I could not have gotten anywhere else. My most recent example was my Cyano outbreak. My LFS bent over backward helping me battle it. They didn't treat me like one of the thousands of on-line shoppers.
When I walk through the door of his shop, he calls me by name! Granted, I have purchased several thousand dollars worth of merchandise, but, none the less!
I could have just as easily bought my lights, skimmer, B-ionic on-line, and then gone to the LFS to ask them how to use it. I don't think that is fair though. The LFS owes you nothing if you don't spend your money at home.
Today I traveled 75 miles to another town and had the oppiortunity to purchase a 4" Crocea clam for Thirty Bucks. But I turned it down because I am planning on buying at home .

I know this is long, and I don't mean to be preachy, but I don't want the on-line guys to do to the LFS's, what wal-mart has done to the local dry-goods store.

I'll tell you one more thing, and I'll stop.

When your ballast, or chiller, or whatever you bought on-line, breaks, and you need help FAST, how are you going to feel when you have to go in and face your LFS guys, and eat crow because you didn't buy it from them and they remember!
:wink:

 

[EmilyB]

Hmmm, I'm certain I spend way too much money on this hobby......all the LFS here know me by name, and about 4 or 5 MO do as well. Boy, if one place had everything I needed up here, they'd have retired by now. :lol:

 

[tinyreef]

a lot of posts on this subject. lfs are independents, you have to check each out over a period of time to gauge their livestock, source, and facilities. i'm from the nyc tri-state area and there's tons of lfs around here. there's probably 2-3 lfs worth anything and i can further distill it down to one store who is unfortunately but expectedly very pricey.

i have found online stores to be the same. dry goods i get from championlighting.com or thatpetplace.com both are coincidentally in pa. livestock has been jeff's exotic fish. i think it's his source supplier that gets him primo specimens. large size and good quality.

 

[Carpentersreef]

(bump)

Can we add this one to the FAQ?

Mitch