Does ich or Doesn't ich exist in all aquaria?

[FISH WHISPERER]

I don't much want to get it into it here, because the name-calling is rather sad...

After a diet of the healthiest variety and ingredients, a fish can absolutely get ich. I believe a diet is important. I also believe most of us don't understand the importance/value. But the most healthily fed fish we have can get infected with ich just that quickly if it stresses out. Diet be damned, if it starts shedding its protective mucous, it is certainly going to be a "high risk" for infection.

Nobody has said that diet is important. I don't think anybody spends hours trying to capitalize on ways to "cheat" their fish from a good diet. I also think the "industry" has done a pretty darn good job at providing many essential "ingredients" in the frozen Formula I and Formula II cubes. People don't have to make a science of feeding their fish, there seems to be some pretty good products out there. Routine is probably more important, once a person has a good brand of food. Pretty much everything I "toss in" as variety is already an ingredient in my "prepared" foods, anyway.

As one who doesn't battle disease, I'd say the Formula frozen brands have earned a reputable position in my tanks after years of healthy fish that can't tell me of their health other than their appearance/behavior, which would appear to be quite normal. Their longevity also makes me suspicious that the food is good.

Of course, it could simply be that I'm just such a beautiful sight to behold, that they feed off my good looks!

I think proper diet is more important at warding off death than it is disease. This is evidenced by dropping in a seriously infected fish in an otherwise "healthy" tank. I don't have fancy titles to back me up, nor references from the anals of science.

I think a poorly fed fish will succumb to death in any situation. Of course, if a person is feeding their tank peanut-butter, the fish won't have the ingredients to maintain their natural immune systems.

But I've seen entire tanks destroyed via parasitic infection, quality of diet be damned. Of course we should feed our fish, and feed them properly and well-balanced foods. I do this to maintain them. I also know that if I introduced ich, I'd probably have the same resistancy in my powderblue and yellow tang as the person who feeds only flake. Again, I don't have anything to back me up but personal experiences/observations, but I'd rather know that fire is hot by experiencing a small burn, rather than by "reading" it and never truly being aware of the intensity.

It keeps me more respectful.

Anyway, somehow this has turned from whether or not ich does or doesn't exist to just "assuming" it must, and how diet should be of increased importance. I think diet is important so our fish live. That's a given.

 

[MattM]

Jeez, just when everyone was engaged in thoughtful discussion and I thought we were making some headway, a certain person resorts to name-calling again.

Now I'm sure this thread will go the way of the last one. This self-apppointed smart-ass is outta here...

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: MattM ]</p>

 

[Terry B]

Matt asked if we could get behind the statement:

""If a subclinical infection of ich is already present, then good diet (along with a lack of other stessors) will help to keep it subclinical."

Yes, I would also agree with that if you change the "will" to "may."

It depends a great deal on the shear number of parasites present. I used the analogy of a three legged stool before. The three legs that balance is are: water quality (I think we can include stress in this category), the overall health of the fish and the density of parasites present.
Terry B

 

[LeoR]

Okay, self-apppointed "smart-asses":

In fact, there are direct references which show how the immune response of fish works to overwhelm and fend off Ich.

But, this is a hobbyist forum and not an immunological or genetical symposium, so I am not about to waste my time on providing free research for your next self-aggrandizing article.

So, get off of your high chairs (assuming you somehow belonged there), and demonstrate some common sense.

The hobbyists need simple advice in simple language to help them keep their fish alive.
They couldn't care less who is better at nitpicking around here.
So, contribute some useful info if you can, otherwise find yourself some other form of amusement.

I will submit again that feeding fish proper food is by far the best thing anyone can do for their well-being. And, yes, this includes resistance to most forms of infection, bacterial or parasitic.

Anyone who can't accept this simple fact unless it was already mentioned by someone else, just search for "immune system +food".

LeoR

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>

 

[LeoR]

The problem with arguments of so-called "smart-asses" is that they present two false dichotomies:
-- Food cannot kill Ich therefore it's irrelevant.
-- Choose between quarantine or food.

No one here has argued that food can kill Ich.
And no one here has argued against quarantine.

Those arguing that quarantine is a 100% cure are simply wrong.
Ich can and does slip through.
So, what you're going to do then? Defend your erroneous position to death or keep an open mind and look for additional measures?

Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites. But it is essential to the immune system, which can keep parasites at bay.
So, proper food is the measure which should be preached as much, if not more than quarantine.

As for references, you should do your own homework as everyone else.
But, I'll give you a hint for the sake of the hobby:
"Lectins".

LeoR

 

[john f]

"Ich can and does slip through."

Exactly how is this?
If an aquarist is sloppy, yes. But it just doesn't come out of nowhere.


As for dogs fending of a fleas or tick infestation..............Dogs in enclosed spaces can and do get life-threatening infestations.
Most dogs can roam over a much larger area. So the fleas do not overwhelm them. This is about the same as a reef fish in the wild which may carry so Ich tomites but never becomes seriously ill. Put him in an enclosed glass box and whamo!!!!!


Leo,
Really the arguement you are making IS to forget quarantine because it's useless because some cryptocaryon will slip thru anway. Is this not what you have been saying all along?
If not, then please agree to this statement:

Proper diet along with sufficient quarantine can eliminate introduction of cryptocaryon into closed systems.


I don't think any of us disagreee with this.


John

 

[danmhippo]

Our hand can be medium for ich.....eg. handling a bag of unquaratined water before re-arranging the tank right afterwards.

 

[Anonymous]

This type of thread is very important to gaining insight to a pretty common problem. I do have one question though, and it for LeoR. Is there any particular reason that you can't discuss this without resorting to name calling? Get a grip! The purpose of this board is to have these types of debates. You are rapidly losing whatever credibility you may have had by all the nasty remarks. Debate the issue, quit making it a personal vendetta (just a suggestion).

 

[john f]

"Our hand can be medium for ich.....eg. handling a bag of unquaratined water before re-arranging the tank right afterwards"

Well that's right. That's one of the reasons why you should wash your hands after dealing with water/fish/corals/equipment from unknown sources.
Although the chances of introducing infective stages of Ich are minimal even this way.

But if you practiced quarantine why would you touch contaminated water and then your display tank. If you touched contaminated water and then messed around in the q-tank.....so what?

John

 

[danmhippo]

Right, absolutely, but I am just playing devil's advocate. Just raising possibilities of how the parasite could travel into aquarium un-noticed, though I agree the probability is very very low.

 

[Anonymous]

Imagine that.

 

[mlundstrom]

I agree with slk3599. Leo, you are the only one lowering himself by calling names. It is quite childish and does nothing to gain you any support for your ideas. It only serves to eliminate any credibility you might have.

 

[Terry B]

Well, LeoR you managed to finally make an accurate statement about food and its effect on preventing or curing ich.

"Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites."

This is much better than suggesting that feeding heavily or the best foods will cure or prevent ich. While diet, water quality and a low stress environment are all essential to long term survival they alone cannot cure or prevent ich. Its still best to quarantine and then use an effective treatment when necessary.
Now maybe we can make some progress about the idea of ich always being present in our aquariums. Subclinical infections do occur, but it is also a fact that the parasite can be eliminated from the system and the fish and that it must be introduced before an infection can occur. There are other pathogens that do exist in virtually all established marine aquariums such as vibrio. However Cryptocaryon irritans is not one of them.
Terry B

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: Terry B ]</p>

 

[LeoR]

Now, let's read it 10 times:

Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.
Food alone, of course, will not prevent attack by parasites.


Where does it say that food will not prevent or cure Ich?

LeoR

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>

 

[Terry B]

LeoR,
You continue to do things that diminish your credibility, as if that where possible. You did use the word "prevent" and the subject of this thread IS about ich.
Terry B