Does ich or Doesn't ich exist in all aquaria?
- Thread starter danmhippo
- Start date
If one takes the proper measures, ich does not have to be present in a tnak. The measures are easy to take, but many people are simply in too big a hurry. To keep the tank free from ich one would need to quarantine everything that goes into a tank. The exception is at setup, provided you don't cycle with fish. Then leave the tank fishless for a month to 6 weeks. Then quarantine fish using hyposalinity or copper. These are the only 2 known methods to kill the parasite. Then you can introduce the fish to the tank without ich being present. That takes care of introducing the parasite with fish. The new rock and corals are the other way the parasite could get into the tank. The "cyst" stage (can't think of the real name right now) could be on/in the rock and/or coral. Quarantine the rock/coral for 4-6 weeks in a fishless system. This method will insure an ichless system.
Use of Metronidazole, or Formalite is far better than Copper any day. If you are quarantining Pomacanthidae, Acanthuridae or Chaetodon species, with Copper, you will find you can have problems with Copper Poisoning. This has been noticed especially with Purple Tangs, and Larger Imperators as well. Use of the lower salinity, is extremely beneficial in not only controlling the Parasites, but also lessens the stress from shipping, and acclimation. JN
I think it is up for debate if ich is always there or not. People say they get ich years after adding anything to the tank. Others say after years of not adding anything to the tank they don't get ich even if the common stressors that bring on the infection occur.
It seems like there needs to be a host for the parasite to surrive long term. So, if you kill it off, it doesn't come back.
However, some think that the parasite either cysts up, or infects fish slightly so we don't notice it. Given the chance the parasite then goes crazy and we see white spots.
RR
It seems like there needs to be a host for the parasite to surrive long term. So, if you kill it off, it doesn't come back.
However, some think that the parasite either cysts up, or infects fish slightly so we don't notice it. Given the chance the parasite then goes crazy and we see white spots.
RR
Marine ich is a parasite in which it must have a host (fish) to survive and reproduce. Otherwise it dies.
Incubation is depended on the enviroment. The warmer it is the faster the cycle. Generally 3 - 8 days on the fish, then falls over for a day or two in cyst form, hatches into a 100 tomites. These tomites swim around and must find/infect a host within a few hours or they die off. Cycle starts over.
7 - 10 days is a bit short. I'ts only one lifecycle and you may not notice it. The white spots are the last visible part that you see before they fall off, there are more on the fish that you don't see. 2 weeks minumium for quarantine , 3-4 better.
Incubation is depended on the enviroment. The warmer it is the faster the cycle. Generally 3 - 8 days on the fish, then falls over for a day or two in cyst form, hatches into a 100 tomites. These tomites swim around and must find/infect a host within a few hours or they die off. Cycle starts over.
7 - 10 days is a bit short. I'ts only one lifecycle and you may not notice it. The white spots are the last visible part that you see before they fall off, there are more on the fish that you don't see. 2 weeks minumium for quarantine , 3-4 better.
Hi:
If you can gleen anythng out of that disasterous thread, its some interesting new therories. MaryHM posted that a researcher has suggested (I have not seen a peer reviewed manuscript describing this) that ich may remain dormant (i.e. latent) in the fish. While this is the first time i have heard of this, it might be an appealing hypothesis if proven,and would make logical sense to those who have an occasional ich outbreak upon stressors.
Until today i would tell you that if you follow those three simple rules: quarentine, quarentine, quarentine... then yes you can have an ich free tank.
What i like about this new piece of data Mary brought forth is that this makes scientific sense. There are a number of eukaryotic viruses (which are obligate parasites-similar to ich) which have defined life cycles that include a latent or dormant period. A period in which the genes of the virus are incorporated into a host cell, yet remain genetically silent. Only to be reawakened and start up the life cycle.
If one were to equate this phemonenon over to ich, then having a potential for a dormant or latency period would equate to long term hidden infection of a host -a very positive characteristic for a obligate parasite.
Anyway..There is no proof for any of my above
statements...except the use of quarentine.
MILPIL: you suggest the use of Metronidazole, or Formalite (which i think you mean formalin or formaldhyde). Metronidazoles are a general antiparasitic somewhat effective against protozoans and amoebas. This drug is the active ingredient in Kick-ich. I ask becuz kick ich have mixed results here on the web boards. If I'm not mistaken its was a full 50/50 on intial testing. While a 50% positive result is better than a 20% positive result. Hyposalinity and copperbased meds are much more effective. Yes copper is toxic no doubt, and has to be used w/ caution for sure in many species.
my opinions for sure
frank
[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: FMarini ]
[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: FMarini ]</p>
If you can gleen anythng out of that disasterous thread, its some interesting new therories. MaryHM posted that a researcher has suggested (I have not seen a peer reviewed manuscript describing this) that ich may remain dormant (i.e. latent) in the fish. While this is the first time i have heard of this, it might be an appealing hypothesis if proven,and would make logical sense to those who have an occasional ich outbreak upon stressors.
Until today i would tell you that if you follow those three simple rules: quarentine, quarentine, quarentine... then yes you can have an ich free tank.
What i like about this new piece of data Mary brought forth is that this makes scientific sense. There are a number of eukaryotic viruses (which are obligate parasites-similar to ich) which have defined life cycles that include a latent or dormant period. A period in which the genes of the virus are incorporated into a host cell, yet remain genetically silent. Only to be reawakened and start up the life cycle.
If one were to equate this phemonenon over to ich, then having a potential for a dormant or latency period would equate to long term hidden infection of a host -a very positive characteristic for a obligate parasite.
Anyway..There is no proof for any of my above
statements...except the use of quarentine.
MILPIL: you suggest the use of Metronidazole, or Formalite (which i think you mean formalin or formaldhyde). Metronidazoles are a general antiparasitic somewhat effective against protozoans and amoebas. This drug is the active ingredient in Kick-ich. I ask becuz kick ich have mixed results here on the web boards. If I'm not mistaken its was a full 50/50 on intial testing. While a 50% positive result is better than a 20% positive result. Hyposalinity and copperbased meds are much more effective. Yes copper is toxic no doubt, and has to be used w/ caution for sure in many species.
my opinions for sure
frank
[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: FMarini ]
[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: FMarini ]</p>
FMarini:
Here is one related reference:
"... Researchers have discovered that the Ich parasite can multiply directly by dividing underneath the fish's top skin layer, bypassing the usual three-stage life cycle. When this occurs, one can see multiple Ich cells of similar size lined up or in clumps underneath the thin layer of host cells (Fig. 4). Ich is not treatable when it becomes established to this degree and reproduces in this manner, because it does not need to leave the host where it would ordinarily be vulnerable to treatment ..." [1]
Figure 4.
If and when I find time I may post more direct references.
To avoid crashing this thread, I won't be replying to any personal remarks.
LeoR
[1] "Ich: White Spot Disease",
Robert M. Durborow, Andrew J. Mitchell and M. David Crosby*
*Cooperative Extension Program, Kentucky State University, Frankfort, KY; Stuttgart National Aquaculture Research Center, Stuttgart, AR; Cooperative Extension Program, Virginia State University, Petersburg, VA.
SRAC Pub. No. 476, May 1998.
[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>
Here is one related reference:
"... Researchers have discovered that the Ich parasite can multiply directly by dividing underneath the fish's top skin layer, bypassing the usual three-stage life cycle. When this occurs, one can see multiple Ich cells of similar size lined up or in clumps underneath the thin layer of host cells (Fig. 4). Ich is not treatable when it becomes established to this degree and reproduces in this manner, because it does not need to leave the host where it would ordinarily be vulnerable to treatment ..." [1]
Figure 4.
If and when I find time I may post more direct references.
To avoid crashing this thread, I won't be replying to any personal remarks.
LeoR
[1] "Ich: White Spot Disease",
Robert M. Durborow, Andrew J. Mitchell and M. David Crosby*
*Cooperative Extension Program, Kentucky State University, Frankfort, KY; Stuttgart National Aquaculture Research Center, Stuttgart, AR; Cooperative Extension Program, Virginia State University, Petersburg, VA.
SRAC Pub. No. 476, May 1998.
[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>
Dude,
you really need to try harder:
"ICH (WHITE SPOT DISEASE)
Author(s):
DURBOROW ROBERT M
MITCHELL ANDREW J
CROSBY M. R
Interpretive Summary:
Ich is the common name of the parasite called Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and for the disease it causes.
In case you didn't notice, that paper is about freshwater Ich........and this board is called REEFS.ORG.
Now go away..............
John
you really need to try harder:
"ICH (WHITE SPOT DISEASE)
Author(s):
DURBOROW ROBERT M
MITCHELL ANDREW J
CROSBY M. R
Interpretive Summary:
Ich is the common name of the parasite called Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and for the disease it causes.
In case you didn't notice, that paper is about freshwater Ich........and this board is called REEFS.ORG.
Now go away..............
John
FMarini:
Don't pay attention to trolls.
"Taxonomic affinities of Cryptocaryon irritans and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis inferred from ribosomal RNA sequence data...
the life cycle and morphological similarities evident between I. multifiliis and C. irritans are an example of convergent evolution." [1]
"Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and Cryptocaryon irritans are ... equivalent in most respects." [2]
"Cryptocaryon irritans is the salt water equivalent to Ichthyophthirius." [3]
LeoR
--------------------------------------
[1] Taxonomic affinities of Cryptocaryon irritans and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis inferred from ribosomal RNA sequence data
Diggles BK, Adlard RD
[2] Fish Diseases and Disorders, Volume 1: Protozoan and Metazoan Infections
Edited by P T K Woo, University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada.
[3] Diseases of Fish
Robert B. Moeller Jr. DVM, LTC, VC,
USA Armed Forces Institute of Pathology Washington, D. C.
Don't pay attention to trolls.
"Taxonomic affinities of Cryptocaryon irritans and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis inferred from ribosomal RNA sequence data...
the life cycle and morphological similarities evident between I. multifiliis and C. irritans are an example of convergent evolution." [1]
"Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and Cryptocaryon irritans are ... equivalent in most respects." [2]
"Cryptocaryon irritans is the salt water equivalent to Ichthyophthirius." [3]
LeoR
--------------------------------------
[1] Taxonomic affinities of Cryptocaryon irritans and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis inferred from ribosomal RNA sequence data
Diggles BK, Adlard RD
[2] Fish Diseases and Disorders, Volume 1: Protozoan and Metazoan Infections
Edited by P T K Woo, University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada.
[3] Diseases of Fish
Robert B. Moeller Jr. DVM, LTC, VC,
USA Armed Forces Institute of Pathology Washington, D. C.
MattM:
I agree with most of your points (probably because you confirm most of what I had said
)
Since you wanted flames, here's one:
Because Ich can hide and bide its time under the skin, quarantine is not a 100% cure.
Of course, quarantine is still recommended, we just need to be aware that it is not foolproof.
So, proper feeding is still the ultimate defense.
LeoR
P.S. Did I mention food again
[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>
I agree with most of your points (probably because you confirm most of what I had said
Since you wanted flames, here's one:
Because Ich can hide and bide its time under the skin, quarantine is not a 100% cure.
Of course, quarantine is still recommended, we just need to be aware that it is not foolproof.
So, proper feeding is still the ultimate defense.
LeoR
P.S. Did I mention food again
[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>
Just a little snippet from an article that I wrote and then I am off to bed.
"Cryptocaryonosis is commonly called “Marine Ich” or “Marine White Spot Disease”. Cryptocaryon irritans was once believed to be closely related to the parasite that causes freshwater “Ick”. Even though these two parasites share some similarities, they are taxonomically distant."
Terry B
"Cryptocaryonosis is commonly called “Marine Ich” or “Marine White Spot Disease”. Cryptocaryon irritans was once believed to be closely related to the parasite that causes freshwater “Ick”. Even though these two parasites share some similarities, they are taxonomically distant."
Terry B
FMarini:
Pay no attention to trolls.
The references I cited above are new and still valid, but here is more, with dates highlighted.
"Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and Cryptocarion irritans ... may behave as facultative parasites and living and reproducing within the host tissues." [4]
"Cryptocaryon irritans is the marine equivalent of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (whitespot)." [5]
LeoR
--------------------------------------
[4] "Philasterides dicentrarchi (Ciliophora, Scuticociliatida) as the causative agent of scuticociliatosis in farmed turbot Scophthalmus maximus in Galicia (NW Spain)"
R. Iglesias 1 , A. Paramá 1 , M. F. Alvarez 1 , J. Leiro 1 , J. Fernández 2 , M. L. Sanmartín 1, *
Diseases of Aquatic Organisms (ISSN: 0177-5103), DAO Vol. 46: 47–55,
August 22, 2001.
[5] "Import Risk Analysis on Live Ornamental Finfish"
Dr Eva-Marie Bernoth, Manager, Aquatic Animal Health Unit, National Office of Animal and Plant Health
Dr Mark Crane, Project Leader, Fish Diseases Laboratory, Australian Animal Health Laboratory
Dr Kevin Doyle, National Office Veterinarian, Australian Veterinary Association
Dr Chris Hawkins, Veterinary Epidemiologist, Western Australia Department of Agriculture
Dr John Humphrey, Darwin Aquaculture Centre, Northern Territor y Department of Fisheries
Dr Brian Jones, Senior Fish Pathologist, Fisheries Department, Western Australia Department of Agriculture
Dr Barry Munday, Research Fellow, School of Aquaculture, University of Tasmania
Dr Mike Nunn, Acting Director, National Office of Animal and Plant Health
Mr Steven Pyecroft, Director, Aquatic Diagnostic Services Pty Ltd
Dr John Rees, Fish Health Manager, Department of Primary Industries and Resources, South Australia
Dr Alasdair McVicar, Head of Fish Health Inspectorate, Scottish Office, Agriculture, Environment and Fisheries Department, Scotland
Dr Chris Rodgers, Consultant in Risk Analysis and Fish and Shellfish Disease
Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service,
July 1999
Pay no attention to trolls.
The references I cited above are new and still valid, but here is more, with dates highlighted.
"Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and Cryptocarion irritans ... may behave as facultative parasites and living and reproducing within the host tissues." [4]
"Cryptocaryon irritans is the marine equivalent of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (whitespot)." [5]
LeoR
--------------------------------------
[4] "Philasterides dicentrarchi (Ciliophora, Scuticociliatida) as the causative agent of scuticociliatosis in farmed turbot Scophthalmus maximus in Galicia (NW Spain)"
R. Iglesias 1 , A. Paramá 1 , M. F. Alvarez 1 , J. Leiro 1 , J. Fernández 2 , M. L. Sanmartín 1, *
Diseases of Aquatic Organisms (ISSN: 0177-5103), DAO Vol. 46: 47–55,
August 22, 2001.
[5] "Import Risk Analysis on Live Ornamental Finfish"
Dr Eva-Marie Bernoth, Manager, Aquatic Animal Health Unit, National Office of Animal and Plant Health
Dr Mark Crane, Project Leader, Fish Diseases Laboratory, Australian Animal Health Laboratory
Dr Kevin Doyle, National Office Veterinarian, Australian Veterinary Association
Dr Chris Hawkins, Veterinary Epidemiologist, Western Australia Department of Agriculture
Dr John Humphrey, Darwin Aquaculture Centre, Northern Territor y Department of Fisheries
Dr Brian Jones, Senior Fish Pathologist, Fisheries Department, Western Australia Department of Agriculture
Dr Barry Munday, Research Fellow, School of Aquaculture, University of Tasmania
Dr Mike Nunn, Acting Director, National Office of Animal and Plant Health
Mr Steven Pyecroft, Director, Aquatic Diagnostic Services Pty Ltd
Dr John Rees, Fish Health Manager, Department of Primary Industries and Resources, South Australia
Dr Alasdair McVicar, Head of Fish Health Inspectorate, Scottish Office, Agriculture, Environment and Fisheries Department, Scotland
Dr Chris Rodgers, Consultant in Risk Analysis and Fish and Shellfish Disease
Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service,
July 1999
I couldn't sleep. Wouldn't you know it, once I get to concentrating on a subject I can't turn my brain off at will.
Prof Bob Lester, symposium chair, reviewed recent work by him and his colleagues, Dr Diggles and Dr Adlard, on Cryptocaryon irritans, the cause of ‘white spot’ disease in marine fish. The parasite was shown to be exceedingly common on wild fish, especially bream, in SE Queensland and this appeared to be the major source of local infection. Morphological and DNA studies suggested that the same species of ciliate was found worldwide, there were several strains, and that it was not closely related to Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, the ciliate that causes ‘white spot’ in freshwater fish. The results have been published in a series of papers in the Journal of Parasitology, Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, and elsewhere.
Back to bed for some sleep, I hope.
Terry B
Prof Bob Lester, symposium chair, reviewed recent work by him and his colleagues, Dr Diggles and Dr Adlard, on Cryptocaryon irritans, the cause of ‘white spot’ disease in marine fish. The parasite was shown to be exceedingly common on wild fish, especially bream, in SE Queensland and this appeared to be the major source of local infection. Morphological and DNA studies suggested that the same species of ciliate was found worldwide, there were several strains, and that it was not closely related to Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, the ciliate that causes ‘white spot’ in freshwater fish. The results have been published in a series of papers in the Journal of Parasitology, Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, and elsewhere.
Back to bed for some sleep, I hope.
Terry B
And I am the Human equivalent of Tiger Woods.
I am the same height, even the same overall build, and the same species even. Heck, my dad was even in the service for 20 years.
Yet try as I may I cannot hit a 340 yard tee shot.
Just because you can find an article stating stating cryptocaryon is the marine equivalent of freshwater ich you can not confer upon crypto all of the attributes of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis.
John
I am the same height, even the same overall build, and the same species even. Heck, my dad was even in the service for 20 years.
Yet try as I may I cannot hit a 340 yard tee shot.
Just because you can find an article stating stating cryptocaryon is the marine equivalent of freshwater ich you can not confer upon crypto all of the attributes of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis.
John
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by FMarini:
<strong>If you can gleen anythng out of that disasterous thread, its some interesting new therories. MaryHM posted that a researcher has suggested...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, that was me, not Mary.
In any case, concerning the posts in the other thread by Terry and Monty (Fish Whisperer)... Can you create and maintain a completely ich-free aquarium?
By following their recommended techniques; Yes, absolutely, 100%, no question.
Now, we have to deal with human nature. Very few people will be patient and disiplined enough to follow those techniques religiously. And, as they rightly point out, one slip-up is all you need to introduce ich into the tank.
I think it's a fair assumption that the membership of reefs.org probably represents some of the most informed and conscientious aquarists that exist, and yet how many of us here always follow these procedures? 20%?, 10%?, less? Be honest, how many of you have ever quarantined a powerhead?
We deal with the more average aquarium buying public everyday. Some of these people want to buy fish the same day they buy their tank! We don't let them, but you see my point.
That's why I am sure that the vast majority of tanks harbor C. irritans, probably 90% or more. Some of these see regular, serious outbreaks that result in fish deaths, but most harbor a low-level or (I hate to bring up this term again after the last thread
) subclinical infection so that the aquarist believes their tank to be ich-free until some stessor affects fish health and results in an opportunistic explosion in the C. irritans population. And once they are breeding in great numbers, the healthy fish get infected too.
So...
Does ich exist in all aquariums? No.
Does it exist in most? Yes.
Does it have to? No, but to keep your tank ich-free you have to follow the precedures that Terry and Monty recommend and never make shortcuts, and the vast majority of us simply aren't that careful.
O.K., Let the flames fly!!!
<strong>If you can gleen anythng out of that disasterous thread, its some interesting new therories. MaryHM posted that a researcher has suggested...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, that was me, not Mary.
In any case, concerning the posts in the other thread by Terry and Monty (Fish Whisperer)... Can you create and maintain a completely ich-free aquarium?
By following their recommended techniques; Yes, absolutely, 100%, no question.
Now, we have to deal with human nature. Very few people will be patient and disiplined enough to follow those techniques religiously. And, as they rightly point out, one slip-up is all you need to introduce ich into the tank.
I think it's a fair assumption that the membership of reefs.org probably represents some of the most informed and conscientious aquarists that exist, and yet how many of us here always follow these procedures? 20%?, 10%?, less? Be honest, how many of you have ever quarantined a powerhead?
We deal with the more average aquarium buying public everyday. Some of these people want to buy fish the same day they buy their tank! We don't let them, but you see my point.
That's why I am sure that the vast majority of tanks harbor C. irritans, probably 90% or more. Some of these see regular, serious outbreaks that result in fish deaths, but most harbor a low-level or (I hate to bring up this term again after the last thread
So...
Does ich exist in all aquariums? No.
Does it exist in most? Yes.
Does it have to? No, but to keep your tank ich-free you have to follow the precedures that Terry and Monty recommend and never make shortcuts, and the vast majority of us simply aren't that careful.
O.K., Let the flames fly!!!
Monty:
Which species of Ich is better in golf is unimportant here (though that would be fun to test
)
What matters for our purpose here (prevention and treatment) is their life cycle.
References [1] and [4] above specifically state that life cycles of freshwater and marine Ich are same.
Ref [1] also claims that their morphology is "evidently similar" and ref [4] talks about them as identical in behaviour and every other practical respect.
Also, all other references (and there is more than I posted) consider them equivalent.
I have yet to see (or hear about) one single reference that mentions any significant difference between the two (aside from their genetic lineage).
Ref [1] specifically says that, though they had different ancestors, they have converged (because evolution forces species to adopt most efficient properties and lifestyle).
As to the reports of different Kick-Ich dosage, that may be related to pH and water properties, like with most other medications.
So while everyone is entitled to their opinion, there is no evidence to treat I. multifiliis and C. irritans as different for our purposes.
In short, we are dealing with evil twins, not long lost cousins here.
LeoR
P.S. Looks like I forgot to insert the plug for importance of food here
[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>
Which species of Ich is better in golf is unimportant here (though that would be fun to test
What matters for our purpose here (prevention and treatment) is their life cycle.
References [1] and [4] above specifically state that life cycles of freshwater and marine Ich are same.
Ref [1] also claims that their morphology is "evidently similar" and ref [4] talks about them as identical in behaviour and every other practical respect.
Also, all other references (and there is more than I posted) consider them equivalent.
I have yet to see (or hear about) one single reference that mentions any significant difference between the two (aside from their genetic lineage).
Ref [1] specifically says that, though they had different ancestors, they have converged (because evolution forces species to adopt most efficient properties and lifestyle).
As to the reports of different Kick-Ich dosage, that may be related to pH and water properties, like with most other medications.
So while everyone is entitled to their opinion, there is no evidence to treat I. multifiliis and C. irritans as different for our purposes.
In short, we are dealing with evil twins, not long lost cousins here.
LeoR
P.S. Looks like I forgot to insert the plug for importance of food here
[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: LeoR ]</p>
I'll agree they are certainly not long-lost cousins. Okay, with the twins... But fraternal twins, not identical. (Having a twin brother and sister, I know I'm leaving a lot room for "exclusivity."
)
Anyway, I can't speak for the experience of freshwater ich, having never worked with the tykes. I am, however, curious as to the supposition of ich remaining dormant for more time than what science has previously interpreted.
Anyway, I can't speak for the experience of freshwater ich, having never worked with the tykes. I am, however, curious as to the supposition of ich remaining dormant for more time than what science has previously interpreted.
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