- Location
- Franklin Lakes, NJ
Until they certify every reefer, we can only help people who want help. This does mean the death of some livestock unfortunately.
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist Introduction
- Thread starter LeslieS
- Start date
Until they certify every reefer, we can only help people who want help. This does mean the death of some livestock unfortunately.
- Location
- Montclair, NJ
It just doesn't seem fair to restrict people who have the abilities to care for a species because some people do not take the advice of others and cause harm to animals. There is people who buy red ear sliders (turtles) who are hardy animals and kill them because they don't know how to take care of them. Should these species be restricted as well?
Now I'll contradict myself
, some animals that get too big should be restricted like Nurse Sharks. They are commonly available but get to 10 - 15 feet. You need permits to keep some exotic species maybe that is an avenue to explore for some of the more difficult fish to keep. There is probably no 100% "cure" though.
- Location
- Upper East Side
Well, some Nurse Sharks are also on the IUCN red list, so I think they should be restricted PERIOD (http://app.iucn.org/info_and_news/press/prsharksandtiger.pdf).
Actually, there's a very good report entitled: Collection of coral reef fish for aquaria: global trade, conservation issues, and management strategies. (http://www.icriforum.org/docs/Aqua-MCS-report.pdf)" It sort of expands on some of the issues that Fenner brings up.
I think part of what this discussion touches upon is what makes a "advanced" oir "difficult" fish. i.e.: I have a mandarin. I know he eat pods, and I know that my responsibility is to provide him with said pods. Does the fact that he eat a particular item which may or may not be available in certain aquaria make him a difficult to care for pet? If your aquariaum has enough pods, a mandarin is actually one of the EASIEST fish to care for.
If I really wanted a bitterfly that ate coral polyps, does that make him difficult? I would say no. It just makes him EXPENSIVE.
Actually, there's a very good report entitled: Collection of coral reef fish for aquaria: global trade, conservation issues, and management strategies. (http://www.icriforum.org/docs/Aqua-MCS-report.pdf)" It sort of expands on some of the issues that Fenner brings up.
I think part of what this discussion touches upon is what makes a "advanced" oir "difficult" fish. i.e.: I have a mandarin. I know he eat pods, and I know that my responsibility is to provide him with said pods. Does the fact that he eat a particular item which may or may not be available in certain aquaria make him a difficult to care for pet? If your aquariaum has enough pods, a mandarin is actually one of the EASIEST fish to care for.
If I really wanted a bitterfly that ate coral polyps, does that make him difficult? I would say no. It just makes him EXPENSIVE.
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- Location
- Montclair, NJ
Well, some Nurse Sharks are also on the IUCN red list, so I think they should be restricted PERIOD (http://app.iucn.org/info_and_news/press/prsharksandtiger.pdf).
Actually, there's a very good report entitled: Collection of coral reef fish for aquaria: global trade, conservation issues, and management strategies. (http://www.icriforum.org/docs/Aqua-MCS-report.pdf)" It sort of expands on some of the issues that Fenner brings up.
I think part of what this discussion touches upon is what makes a "advanced" oir "difficult" fish. i.e.: I have a mandarin. I know he eat pods, and I know that my responsibility is to provide him with said pods. Does the fact that he eat a particular item which may or may not be available in certain aquaria make him a difficult to care for pet? If your aquariaum has enough pods, a mandarin is actually one of the EASIEST fish to care for.
If I really wanted a bitterfly that ate coral polyps, does that make him difficult? I would say no. It just makes him EXPENSIVE.
The nurse shark in that article is a different species of the nurse that is commonly available. The Nurse shark from Florida (Ginglymostoma cirratum) is the one commonly available. I disagree that all nurse sharks should be restricted. One that is not commonly available (for lack of knowledge) is the short tailed nurse shark (Pseudoginglymostoma brevicaudatum) only gets about 30". That is smaller than some bamboo sharks commonly kept in aquariums.
I think your Mandarin example is perfect. How many times do we see posts of dying or dead Mandarins when they should be one of the easiest fish to keep if you have the proper set up? There was a time when people said you can't keep them because they die which is completely false. If people made a concsious effort to explain "why" the fish can be difficult to keep rather than say "No", the hobby would benefit greatly and so would the fish!
- Location
- Upper East Side
I didn't mean all nurse sharks should be restricted - I just meant that the ones that were on the red list should be restricted. I don't have a problem with keeping sharks in aquaria provided that the person who buys them has done the appropriate research. So I think we're in full agreement, Dom!
I don't have a problem with keeping sharks in aquaria provided that the person who buys them has done the appropriate research. So I think we're in full agreement, Dom!
- Location
- Montclair, NJ
Definately. I am a little sensitive to that subject mainly because I keep sharks and also that nobody would have an aquarium if someone didn't give it a try.
I am looking forward to reading on!
and also that nobody would have an aquarium if someone didn't give it a try.I am looking forward to reading on!
Great beginning post Leslie.
A few of my own thoughts about the Introduction before I address the issues that have come up.
Fenner gives a very realistic presentation on why aquarists do what they do. For the right reasons and the wrong reasons. It's nice to hear from a person that knows what he's talking about, been in the business since the get-go, and advocates proper care-taking of marine life. It all boils down to his definition of being a "concientious" aquarium hobbyist. What I got from this intro are:
1) People get into things for the wrong reasons, and continue to make wrong choices due to unawareness and/or misinformation.
2) Being a concientious hobbyist forces us to address some alarming issues
3) It's best if we work as a community to force change in the unethical practices of this hobby
Now, back to Domboski's point about being allowed to keep any animal if one can properly provide for it. I admire your dedication and ability to provide for any and all the animals you take under your care. However, realistically, not many hobbyist are like you. If it were so, Fenner wouldn't have needed to write this book in the first place. Granted, things have gotten better (I think) since his writing of the book. My only concern is that others look at your example and think they can do the same (I really don't want to get too into this point b/c the debate can go on forever).
I find that as individuals we tend to be brash and make dumb decisions, but placed in an community environment, we don't make those dumb decisions for fear of being frowned on, scolded. So what's my point? Point someone out if they're doing something wrong, inform them, offer alternatives/solutions, and if they persist, tell them off. Seriously, it works. Tough love.
Thanks Veronique and Leslie for bringing up the topic of fish/coral collection. I didn't know too much about the subject...but now I'm learning.
P.S. - I've enjoyed the hobby more since I've join the site. Why? Because part of the joy in keeping a reef tank is being able to share it. Shared experiences, shared information not only help us better the hobby, but also allow us to better enjoy the hobby.
A few of my own thoughts about the Introduction before I address the issues that have come up.
Fenner gives a very realistic presentation on why aquarists do what they do. For the right reasons and the wrong reasons. It's nice to hear from a person that knows what he's talking about, been in the business since the get-go, and advocates proper care-taking of marine life. It all boils down to his definition of being a "concientious" aquarium hobbyist. What I got from this intro are:
1) People get into things for the wrong reasons, and continue to make wrong choices due to unawareness and/or misinformation.
2) Being a concientious hobbyist forces us to address some alarming issues
3) It's best if we work as a community to force change in the unethical practices of this hobby
Now, back to Domboski's point about being allowed to keep any animal if one can properly provide for it. I admire your dedication and ability to provide for any and all the animals you take under your care. However, realistically, not many hobbyist are like you. If it were so, Fenner wouldn't have needed to write this book in the first place. Granted, things have gotten better (I think) since his writing of the book. My only concern is that others look at your example and think they can do the same (I really don't want to get too into this point b/c the debate can go on forever).
I find that as individuals we tend to be brash and make dumb decisions, but placed in an community environment, we don't make those dumb decisions for fear of being frowned on, scolded. So what's my point? Point someone out if they're doing something wrong, inform them, offer alternatives/solutions, and if they persist, tell them off. Seriously, it works. Tough love.
Thanks Veronique and Leslie for bringing up the topic of fish/coral collection. I didn't know too much about the subject...but now I'm learning
.P.S. - I've enjoyed the hobby more since I've join the site. Why? Because part of the joy in keeping a reef tank is being able to share it. Shared experiences, shared information not only help us better the hobby, but also allow us to better enjoy the hobby.
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- Location
- Montclair, NJ
Great beginning post Leslie.
A few of my own thoughts about the Introduction before I address the issues that have come up.
Fenner gives a very realistic presentation on why aquarists do what they do. For the right reasons or the wrong reasons. It's nice to hear from a person that knows what he's talking about, been in the business since the get-go, and advocates proper care-taking of marine life. It all boils down to this definition of being a "concientious" aquarium hobbyist. What I got from this intro are:
1) People get into things for the wrong reasons, and continue to make to wrong choices due to unawareness and/or misinformation.
2) Being a concientious hobbyist forces us to address some alarming issues
3) It's best if we work as a community to force change in the unethical practices of this hobby
Now, back to Domboski's point about being allowed to keep any animal if one can properly provide for it. I admire your dedication and ability to provide for any and all the animals you take under your care. However, realistically, not many hobbyist are like you. If it were so, Fenner wouldn't have needed to write this book in the first place. Granted, things have gotten better (I think) since his writing of the book. My only concern is that others look at your example and think they can do the same (I really don't want to get too into this point b/c the debate can go on forever).
I find that as individuals we tend to be brash and make dumb decisions, but placed in an community environment, we don't make those dumb decisions for fear of being frowned on, scolded. So what's my point? Point someone out if they're doing something wrong, inform them, offer alternatives/solutions, and if they persist, tell them off. Seriously, it works. Tough love.
Thanks Veronique and Leslie for bringing up the topic of fish/coral collection. I didn't know too much about the subject...but now I'm learning
P.S. - I've enjoyed the hobby more since I've join the site. Why? Because part of the joy in keeping a reef tank is being able to share it. Shared experiences, shared information not only help us better the hobby, but also allow us to better enjoy the hobby.
Good post Froggie. A few people let me know that showing my tank could lead to people trying it without the means. Its unfortunate that I can't enjoy my tank and share it with others because of the potential ramifications but I certainly understand. Someone bashed me on my thread and apologized through PM after realizing my plans and how I care for these animals.
I take the good with the bad though and a lot of people have reached out to me for advice on how to better care for some of their animals and that makes it worth the little heat I do take. I know that their animals are getting better care then they may have otherwise.
I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything (hence joining the Book club).
Good summary of the Intro too!
The issue of responsibility in the care for marine life as a hobby reminds me of the practices I see in the purchase and care of other "pets". How many people, on the spur of the moment, walk by a pet store and see a cute puppy and decide they want a dog. Right then. Right now. They usually have only limited knowledge, at best, of the breeds requirements, and buy from pet stores without any understanding of the source, not infrequently, a puppy mill which breeds for volume, allowing genetic defects to be passed along revealing themselves as dogs that have excessive illnesses, and are kept, prior to sale in poor conditions.
So the puppy goes home, after paying an outrageous amount of money for it, starts barking and eliminating on the floor and furniture, and then starts chewing through drywall. That poor dog's next home is likely to be a shelter, hopefully one that does not euthanize.
That is not to say many of us grew up with dogs and cats, and are well aware of the responsibilities involved, and have some familiarity with the breeds we keep. However, not everyone adopts a pet with such open eyes.
Caring for a marine aquarium is more complicated by a magnitude of difference, as well as ongoing costs to provide proper care and maintenance. While the typical impulse purchase at a Petco will likely be for a fresh water fish tank, which can be one, more forgiving, and two, more likely to have access to readily aqua-cultured stock, the marine aquarium doesn't provide for much leeway in lazy care, and does, although less and less, rely on removal of animals and fish from the natural reef.
In the perfect world, a responsible fish store would make a customer take home a book before a tank. Unfortunately, that is not the real world, and there's no point pretending otherwise. I think the best that can be achieved is by people committed to SW aquaria standing by to offer help, opinion, and advice to those newbies like me. Granted, some won't listen, and some won't even bother to ask. That shouldn't change our behavior in doing the best we can for our own reefs, as well as trying to answer questions of others should they take the time to ask.
I do believe that some collections and species can benefit from the least restriction necessary to protect the reef and fish. No one can stop a person from buying difficult to care for fish and coral, but, by placing even voluntary controls, hopefully some of the horror stories we read about of improper care and unnecessary losses can be controlled.
Henry
So the puppy goes home, after paying an outrageous amount of money for it, starts barking and eliminating on the floor and furniture, and then starts chewing through drywall. That poor dog's next home is likely to be a shelter, hopefully one that does not euthanize.
That is not to say many of us grew up with dogs and cats, and are well aware of the responsibilities involved, and have some familiarity with the breeds we keep. However, not everyone adopts a pet with such open eyes.
Caring for a marine aquarium is more complicated by a magnitude of difference, as well as ongoing costs to provide proper care and maintenance. While the typical impulse purchase at a Petco will likely be for a fresh water fish tank, which can be one, more forgiving, and two, more likely to have access to readily aqua-cultured stock, the marine aquarium doesn't provide for much leeway in lazy care, and does, although less and less, rely on removal of animals and fish from the natural reef.
In the perfect world, a responsible fish store would make a customer take home a book before a tank. Unfortunately, that is not the real world, and there's no point pretending otherwise. I think the best that can be achieved is by people committed to SW aquaria standing by to offer help, opinion, and advice to those newbies like me. Granted, some won't listen, and some won't even bother to ask. That shouldn't change our behavior in doing the best we can for our own reefs, as well as trying to answer questions of others should they take the time to ask.
I do believe that some collections and species can benefit from the least restriction necessary to protect the reef and fish. No one can stop a person from buying difficult to care for fish and coral, but, by placing even voluntary controls, hopefully some of the horror stories we read about of improper care and unnecessary losses can be controlled.
Henry
- Location
- Nueva York
I just want to say that although if noone ever tried and failed they wouldnt be anyone keeping aquariums today we cant promote the failure. Which means we cant encourage newbs to start out with nano tanks and such since theyre more likely to fail. On the other hand we also cant tell them that they CANT keep a nano or a coperband butterfly as their first fish because everyone has the right to the pursuit of happieness as long as it doesnt infringe on other people's rights....
The thing is that although the ocean is vast and contains thousands of fish, we are also a vast group of people who keep a net of thousands of fish. If we all failed just once, and thus killing our livestock, who says that there will be enough livestock for our children to enjoy?
The thing is that although the ocean is vast and contains thousands of fish, we are also a vast group of people who keep a net of thousands of fish. If we all failed just once, and thus killing our livestock, who says that there will be enough livestock for our children to enjoy?
I went to PetCo today, and the sales associate, who is very nice and helpful, did not know how the fish were collected. The fish experts comes in on Wednesday's at noon. I would like to find out if the fish expert knows how the fish are collected and is PetCo MAC certified? Even if it is expensive, they are big enough to afford it.
ummm...Yeah! What he said! :wink1:
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The author is completely correct that the all mighty dollar is the only way to make change in this world. And that applies to all aspects of life.
Concerned about global warming killing coral reefs- it is our responciblity to buy lower fuel cars. Dont run your dish washer at peek hours, turn lights off, use biodegradable soaps, recycle, buy recycled. etc etc etc.
When people walk into stores they trust that the government would not permit X to be sold if it was bad. Sadly there are still areasol cans and other environmentally haszardous products are still being sold. It is our responciblity to put our dollar behind companies and stores that have good ethics-even if it costs us extra money to do so.
Support stores that insist that the staff be knowledgeable and give good advice the costumers. We may know the answers and could go find a cheeper source- but it might be better to support the stores that pay well and educate employees.
I purchased an orchid from a fancy florist. They handed me a care sheet for the type of orchid I purchased. Many products have instructions associated with them and at least a warning lable on them. It would be a wonderful idea if fish sellers were required to include a care sheet for each kind of fish for sale.
I refuse to shop at Walmart- they may be the cheepest but the company's business practices are horrifing. It is my job as a consumer to research and put my dollar behind it. Governing law makers do not care about animal rights more than commerce (just look at the food industry).
I would like that care sheet very much. I am not intereseted in purchasing an item that I will not be successful with. The easier for me to find the information about what would be good for my ablities the better I can make choices for myself. Care sheets would also mean that even stores that do not have a trained staff can still give out the information. It would be a low cost item to institute. Law makers might go for it.
I very much would like to get a yellow tang - but every single sourse around me has made it transparent to me that it would mean blood shed in my tank. Good to know. I am also glad to hear certain things would be a challenge, why, weight it and decide for myself. I am also told certain things are completely out of my leage at this stage and I am happy to not get them. Access to information is the key.
If everyone knew just how bad certain things were- the disappearing shoppers dollar would put it out of business.
Not that information will solve all the issues that we disagree with choices that are made. For instance I know it is better to purchase a mutt dog 1)mixed breeds are stronger health wise 2)lots of dogs in kennels need a home. 3)demands on pure breed lines can put lead to unethincal breeding practices. But weighted out the pros and cons and I bought my pure bred dog anyways. and balence my karma out by donating money to no-kill shelters every year.
My main comment about the book so far... would be it needs photos by Jhale in it.
Concerned about global warming killing coral reefs- it is our responciblity to buy lower fuel cars. Dont run your dish washer at peek hours, turn lights off, use biodegradable soaps, recycle, buy recycled. etc etc etc.
When people walk into stores they trust that the government would not permit X to be sold if it was bad. Sadly there are still areasol cans and other environmentally haszardous products are still being sold. It is our responciblity to put our dollar behind companies and stores that have good ethics-even if it costs us extra money to do so.
Support stores that insist that the staff be knowledgeable and give good advice the costumers. We may know the answers and could go find a cheeper source- but it might be better to support the stores that pay well and educate employees.
I purchased an orchid from a fancy florist. They handed me a care sheet for the type of orchid I purchased. Many products have instructions associated with them and at least a warning lable on them. It would be a wonderful idea if fish sellers were required to include a care sheet for each kind of fish for sale.
I refuse to shop at Walmart- they may be the cheepest but the company's business practices are horrifing. It is my job as a consumer to research and put my dollar behind it. Governing law makers do not care about animal rights more than commerce (just look at the food industry).
I would like that care sheet very much. I am not intereseted in purchasing an item that I will not be successful with. The easier for me to find the information about what would be good for my ablities the better I can make choices for myself. Care sheets would also mean that even stores that do not have a trained staff can still give out the information. It would be a low cost item to institute. Law makers might go for it.
I very much would like to get a yellow tang - but every single sourse around me has made it transparent to me that it would mean blood shed in my tank. Good to know. I am also glad to hear certain things would be a challenge, why, weight it and decide for myself. I am also told certain things are completely out of my leage at this stage and I am happy to not get them. Access to information is the key.
If everyone knew just how bad certain things were- the disappearing shoppers dollar would put it out of business.
Not that information will solve all the issues that we disagree with choices that are made. For instance I know it is better to purchase a mutt dog 1)mixed breeds are stronger health wise 2)lots of dogs in kennels need a home. 3)demands on pure breed lines can put lead to unethincal breeding practices. But weighted out the pros and cons and I bought my pure bred dog anyways. and balence my karma out by donating money to no-kill shelters every year.
My main comment about the book so far... would be it needs photos by Jhale in it.
- Location
- Upper East Side
It's interesting that you mention a care sheet, as the PetCo I went to in California (aside from being FAR BETTER MAINTAINED than the petcos in Manhattan) had care sheets for different animals. Just goes to show that just because one store in a chain is bad doesn't mean they are all bad.
For those that may be interested, here is the link for more about the IUCN red list:
http://www.iucnredlist.org/
If you want to find out if a fish you are interested in it on the red list, I recommend doing a basic search and typing in the genus name. For instance, if you type in "centropyge", the only species that is on the redlist is the Resplendent Pygmy Angelfish. It's listed as vulnerable. So, if it were me, I would never request one of these fish. (As it happens, they aren't supposed to be collected and they now have aquacultured ones, but as an example....)
I know Fenner didn't discuss this explicitly, but I think knowing how endangered your fish in your little glass box are is also part of being conscientious.
For those that may be interested, here is the link for more about the IUCN red list:
http://www.iucnredlist.org/
If you want to find out if a fish you are interested in it on the red list, I recommend doing a basic search and typing in the genus name. For instance, if you type in "centropyge", the only species that is on the redlist is the Resplendent Pygmy Angelfish. It's listed as vulnerable. So, if it were me, I would never request one of these fish. (As it happens, they aren't supposed to be collected and they now have aquacultured ones, but as an example....)
I know Fenner didn't discuss this explicitly, but I think knowing how endangered your fish in your little glass box are is also part of being conscientious.
would this not go against being a conscientious aquarist? I feel the opposite, we can and should tell new hobbyists not to keep difficult specimens.
It's because of the people who have pioneered the hobby that we have the knowledge we do today. this knowledge should be used, shared, and taught to all those who enter the hobby. The knowledge helps prevent mistakes others have made, and should be used to give the absolute best care we can to the animals we choose to keep.
My definition of a conscientious aquarist is a person who understands what being in the hobby means to the reefs that we collect our creatures from.
a quote from Fenner -
"The word conscientious is derived from the latin roots for with (con) and to know (scire). Being conscientious as a marine aquarist means being an informed, intelligent consumer. More than that, it also implies a level of faith in the hobby and a deep affection for the environments we seek to mimic in miniature. It means taking certain responsibilities seriously and doing things right. both for our own peace of mind and the well-being of our captive charges."
I would prefer if he had placed taking care of the animals before being an informed consumer, but at least they are both mentioned.
I've been in the marine hobby since '85. I was lucky, I started out buying from some great stores owned by people who cared about the animals they sold. I never got bad advice from them, and they helped guide me along the way.
We are now lucky enough to have the internet, and the message boards such as Manhattan Reefs. They are such a great way to spread this wealth of knowledge
let's just make sure we do so in a responsible way
FYI, this is a good thread discussing fish collection and the MAC process.
Both Joe and Sean are in the industry and had some interesting things to say.
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/general-discussion/10295-reality-fish-collection.html
Both Joe and Sean are in the industry and had some interesting things to say.
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/general-discussion/10295-reality-fish-collection.html
- Location
- Montclair, NJ
This may be for another thread but I found it interesting that the Blue Ribbon Eel was not on the list but the Coral Catshark was. Coral Catsharks have been bred succesfully in captivity but 95% of the Blue Ribbon Eels die because they will not eat in captivity and there is several publications on their conservation and expert's concern for their future. Even the Yellow Stingray was on the list (also breeds in captivity). There wasn't a lot of concrete info why they were on the list. In fact, for the two examples I chose, it seemed speculatory.
I am not against the list just wondering what the criteria is. According to Fenner's definition of "difficult to keep", I feel the Blue Ribbon Eel fits the bill and the Coral Catshark does not. The IUCN Redlist seems to have a different criteria for including a species on the list. Is it simply related to how they are collected?
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
Lissa, no need to ask Petco if they are MAC certified. They are not. The fact is only about 4-5 stores ( the last time i looked) in the ENTIRE COUNTRY are MAC certified. A handful of wholesalers too. Their certification project and ability to supply the industry in any meaningful way with "clean fish" has by any objective standards been an abject failure.
The good news is that there are other locally based operations in the PI. ( Cebu) and Indonesia that are converting divers to net collecting that are beginning to provide a wider range of responsibly collected fish to the industry. Accurately identifying which fish these are at the hobbyist or even wholesale level is another matter.
The good news is that there are other locally based operations in the PI. ( Cebu) and Indonesia that are converting divers to net collecting that are beginning to provide a wider range of responsibly collected fish to the industry. Accurately identifying which fish these are at the hobbyist or even wholesale level is another matter.
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