New Kole Tang has Ick

[F1ameange1]

Hi,

I posted an eariler thread (at reefcentral) regarding a new Kole which wouldn't eat.. here's the link..
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulleti...?threadid=33174

please read the above for more of the previous details. (thanks)
Anyways, I found out yesterday that "surprise!" the fish was ich.. probably due to the fact of the previous stressful battles.

I wanted to treat the fish with selcon and garlic because he has inhibited no signs of stress from the disease, but, of course, since the fish is new, he is not eating. He has no rapid breathing, nor is he scratching up against the rocks. He is just covered in the cryptocaryon irritans. None of the other fish have ick.

What am I to do?

Should I q/t the fish? but then wouldn't I go through the same upon re-entering the fish into the tank? harrassement?
(I foolishly also DON't have a Q/T with water in it at the moment, nor do have filter pads in my main tank to place in there as a bio-filter. How would you provide filtration so the q/t doesn't cycle?)

How dangerous is it for my other fish at the moment?

THANKS
A Clearly distaught FlameAngel

 

[F1ameange1]

Since the Link didn't work here is the thread:

Current Date: Wednesday Aug. 15th

I bought this med. Kole Tang three days ago (Sunday: Late Afternoon) and am having a little trouble feeding it. I specifically BOUGHT this fish b/c it's suppose to be a hearty eater, go figure.

These are the circumstances: Upon introduction into the tank it was harrassed by a yellow tang which had previously made residence in the tank. This prompted me to rearrange the rockwork, Monday morning, which I think has solved the problem (i.e. the harrassement has decreased everyday since then, to the point of today where no real attacks are present).

For some fin rips I treated with Melafix, Monday, Tuesday and today which has cleared up some of his battle wounds.

Although the fish is more active, it still remains figity and prefers the back of the aquarium to the front. Whenever I come close he subsequently hides until I leave.

The foods I have tried are Seaweeds Selects (green macro) on a clip, and Formula Two frozen and chopped, both from Ocean Nutrition, which he was feed on at the LFS. Once a day.

Currently he was shown on interest in the food, probably partly because he is hiding, but he isn't picking it off the sand where some sometimes are. He is though, picking off the rocks, or there is an instictual earnest in eating.

Thanx

 

[naesco]

What is the size of your tank?
It sounds like the ich is quite bad in which case you have to consider whether you should do a fresh water dip.
Take a very large piece of nori and tie it around a small rock and soak the nori in garlic extract. Place the rock near where the kole is hiding. Do this with the lights off and place it very carefully so that it doesn't fall apart.
Just prior to doing this feed the yellow tang garlic soaked food at the other end of the tank until he is full so that he doesn't go after the rock you have placed in the tank.
Hopefully the tangs will get used to each other in a few days if you are lucky. If you have a small tank this is very unlikely and you should consider returning one of them to the LFS.
Good Luck

 

[KenH]

FlameA,
Besides the excellent advice Naesco gave you, another possible option is to introduce a neon goby or two. I have had great success with them ridding tangs and other fish of parasites. I currently have 3 tangs (Hippo, Yellow and Kole) and all three tangs seem to enjoy visiting the neon goby cleaning station for a once over even when they appear to have no obvious signs of a problem. In typical tang fashion, they even seem to vie with each other for the attention of the neons.

They were originally introduced when my hippo tang came down with something and within 3 days they had removed all signs of the problem (along with more than a few of the Hippos scales). The other good thing about using neons as cleaners is that they will also take normal foods so they will not die of starvation like some of the other cleaners can. And of course, the whole cleaning thing is a pretty neat thing to watch. It also has the benefit that you don't need to try to catch the fish and treat it with chemicals, which adds to the stress it (and you) are already under.

Here is a blurry pic of one of the Neons servicing the Hippo

I kept a Yellow and a Kole in a 70 and they got along fine, but that tank was probably on the smallish side for these two fish. It sounds like your tangs are settling in, but keep an eye on the Yellow tang and if he continues to beat up on the Kole, you should consider removing it for its own safety. Occasional little threat displays that don't result in bloodshed are normal between tangs and are not a cause for alarm as long as injury doesn't result. Simple torn fins where the tear does not get down to the flesh, will normally heal by themselves and do not generally need formal treatment.

Assuming your tank is a reef tank, if you see it grazing on the rocks, it is getting some (if not all) its nutritional requirements met. Koles are herbivores and detritus eaters and will tend to pick at the sand (unlike the Yellow) as well as the live rock for food. The main thing to watch is that the Yellow tang doesn't keep the Kole cornered so much that it does not have a chance to feed.

Good Luck,
--- Ken

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: KenH ]

 

[danmhippo]

My Kole is never interested in Nori, just so you know. Its main food are drifters in water column and algae on the rock. Naesco gave excellent suggextion to wrap nori on a rock and place it "very close" to where kole tang hide out.

Also, Kole tang are shy. When one is introduced, it is normal that you won't see him much during the first 2-3 weeks. That's normal. Don't expect him to play in the open until he becomes a veteran of the tank. Another thing you could do, but I do not suggest you to do now, is to remove the yellow to the sump. You will be able to observe if the kole feels more at ease without the yellow around. After 2weeks of no yellow in the main tank plus rock works re-arrangement, the kole would have become the dominant tang, and then its time to re-introduce the yellow. I previously tells you that I wouldn't do it now is that the 2 has already established a pecking order. Doing this will help you observe kole's natural behavior but not necessarily improve the relationship between the 2 tangs.

How different in size are the yellow and the kole?

 

[naesco]

Ken the use of gobies is interesting.
Have you had a situation where one of your fish had a serious case of ich and the gobies were sucessfull in beating it?
I know that garlic works when ich is moderate but have no personal experience with a serious outbreak.
Like Flame I am also interested in knowing what to feed them when there is no ich in the tank.
Thank you.

 

[popepain]

i was just at the LFS and the guy wich is a good reefer said neon gobies need to be chilled around 68 degrees now im not sure but that tould be almost a 10 degree drop in temp for me can that be good? cleaner wrase only last a month at most so why spend money on a fish that will only last a week in high temps as a reef is? try cleaner shrimp

 

[popepain]

ick be gone= 4 cloves of garlic put in a blender or jucer try to get a liquide out of it .take this liquide and put brine shrimp in it that have been washed with water let set over night then feed as needed. now i know this is not the method most people use so .....but this is the only thing that has worked for me and my tangs have kicked the ick.use this about every other week or once a month.and if you like to feed sea weed try and go find some sea weed in your local market in the asian section just dont get the spicy kind

 

[F1ameange1]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

A nean goby is a definate option, but what would I feed it, once parasites are gone? Is it hard to feed?

I think the territorial battles are over, I'm just dealing with the consequences from it.

I'm also surprised that ick has not spread of others. I thought it would be now?

Thanks
FlameAngel
I always try now to put Selcon and Garlic in the foods.

 

[jdeets]

I'd be surprised if it was ich as well. According to Fenner, Kole Tangs are very resistant to parasites. I recently added one and asked him if I should QT it, and he said this species doesn't do well in QT, just to do a FW dip and put him in the main tank. I'm not advocating adding fish without QT, but Fenner thought that with the Kole tangs, a FW dip only would be sufficient.

At any rate, I had a similar experience that you're having (but minus the white spots). My Kole went into a 180 with three tangs of the Zebrasoma genus. Within hours of adding the Kole, I thought I was going to have to pull him. He was terribly torn up by the Z. tangs and I felt awful. By the second day, he was not being harrassed much and now everyone lives in perfect harmony.

The Kole Tangs are bristle tooth fish and their primary food source is microalgae that they pick off the rocks and glass. Mine didn't eat the first day but by the second day he was regularly picking the rocks between territorial battles. Within a few weeks, he started to eat flake and frozen meaty food from the water column, but he didn't do that right away. It's been several months now and I've just recently noticed that he has discovered the algae clip and now eats nori right along side of the Z. tangs.

In your case, don't expect to see him eating much other than off the rocks initially. Once he settles in, he will start increasing his diet.

One other thing is that the bristle tooth structures on the Kole tangs is very delicate and easily damaged in shipping and handling. For the most part, if a Kole tang's mouth is damaged, he will no longer eat, and is doomed. Hopefully your Kole is just stressed and his not eating is not related to any mouth injury.

Here's a link to Fenner's site with some info on the Kole tangs.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ctenocha.htm

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[Chucker]

popepain- it is highly likely that the individual you spoke to was confusing neon gobies with catalina gobies, which are indeed a temperate species which shoudl not be kept in a tropical reef tank.

 

[F1ameange1]

I have two cleaner shrimp, who aren't really interested in this fish, although all the parasites.

I'm of a suspiscion that it might not even be ick, because many many things masquarade as ick.

Clues.
no scratching
does not spread to other fish
no interest by cleaners.

The only indication of ick is small whitish spots.

FlameAngel

 

[danmhippo]

I have 2 neon goby and my temp is 80F I had them for about 3 months. Most of time, they feed on anything that drift by, brine shrimp, fragments of flakes, bits of frozen foods...etc.

 

[ging]

I some questions about the freshwater dip ..
1. What does this do to help ?
2. Is it only for fish with ICH ?
c. How long do you dip them, is it just a drop in and out or do you leave them in a specified amount of time ? TIA

ging

 

[Odd Ball]

My Kole Tang eats non stop. As someone mentioned - Fenner is pretty much spot on. Kole Tangs are very hardy. One of the most hardiest tangs I've every seen. However, as they use their mouth non stop for food (who doest, I know that sounds funny, sorry) if they injure it, they usually end up dieing. I guess they call them Bristle tooth for a reason.

Mine will eat everything. Nori, krill, mysis shrimp and brine. Flake as well. A better grazer than my Purple.

I screwed up as he was my first Tang in my 100 gallon. I added a purple months later and they almost killed each other. However, 3 days later they figured it out and resolved their issues. Both are happy now and eat Nori off the same clip

Only problem is that the Purple has grown much faster than what I thought - so I think I'm going to sell him.

Anyway - one thing that was already mentioned. Feed garlic about once a week. It does not hurt anything and it does help "prevent" ick. Prevention in that the parasites do not like the taste of garlic and do not stay on the fish...

Another thought for Kole tank keepers. When I clean my tank I leave one side of the tank with algae for the Kole tang and snails to munch on. I see all kinds of little mouth marks on the glass

It's a side that I can't see anyway - so I might as well leave it for the other animals. They do a pretty good job. In stead of weekly glass cleanings it gets about 1 a month.

Hope this helps. Gook luck with your Kole!
Regards

 

[Odd Ball]

Oh yeah,

You don't have to spend a arm and a leg on exotic garlic either. As someone mentioned you can either make your own or go to the local store.

In the baking or spice section you can find a garlic extract from McCormack. It comes in a green box. Not as strong as others I'm sure, but it's what I use with good success. Just soak whatever you feed with a few drops. Works great.

Heck, I even put it in my dogs food. Fleas hate it

 

[naesco]

Ging
A freshwater dip simply causes the ich to fall off the fish. Other reefers may wish to detail exactly what happens.
The procedure is simple.
You set aside some freshwater in a small container the same PH and temperature as your tank. You need to use a product like Tetra Aquasafe first to remove any chorine.
I remove the fish from the tank with a net ensuring that it has no opportunity to jump out, and place the fish with the net in the container.
Some fish like royal grammas really go crazy and other like tangs tend to flop on their sides almost immmediately.
I time a two minute bath observing to ensure that there is no undue stress other than the stress of the bath itself. If the fish is 'freaking out' or looking like it is going to expire, place it back in the tank. Less is better if you are unsure.
Turn the tank lights off for several hours after you return the fish to the tank.
It is impossible to categorize how each species or each fish reacts to the bath.
As well as ich other parasites may be treated in this manner.
Some reefers do a fresh water dip on receipt of fish from Mail Order (MO) or the fish store but I choose not to as the fish are stressed enough already. This is just my opinion. Instead I feed garlic extract in food for new arrivals.
I use a freshwater dip where there is a serious ich problem to remove most of the ich. The garlic treatment clears the few remaining on the fish.
Do not put the freshwater in the container into the tank as it contains living ich.

 

[naesco]

Oddball
Leaving some glass with film algae on is a great idea.
I also have a medium sized smooth rock that the Kole keeps sucking on.

 

[jdeets]

I'd like to put in my $0.02 on the FW dip as well. I started doing FW dips for all new LFS arrivals some time ago. The Kole tang was my most recent addition, and I also did a FW dip on the Kole.

Every time I do a FW dip it scares the begeezus out of me. I use RO/DI water with buffer to adjust pH and also adjust the water to the tank's temperature. I also add methylene blue to the dip mixture. According to Fenner, it darkens the water and increases oxygen in the dip solution. Fenner swears by it also as effective against parasites

The reason it is scary when I do the dip is that the fish almost always goes into an apparent shock, lays on its side and doesn't move unless it's disturbed. I usually remove the fish to the main tank seconds after this happens, and it has always happened pretty quickly.

The main thing to remember when doing a FW dip is DO NOT leave the fish unattended in the dip solution. Don't even look away for a second. The dip is VERY stressful and within seconds the fish can become incapacitated.

Although they've always "played dead" in the dip solution, they've always swam normally the second they go into the tank. I've never lost a fish to a FW dip and my tank has never had an ich outbreak.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know a little more what to expect if you try it.

 

[JohnD]

jdeets - Thanks for the link to wetwebmedia.com I had been there in the past, but I forgot to bookmark the page. Great site. I could spend hours there.

Regards,

JohnD