FWIW, I think that there is validity in suggesting a minimum tank size (by tank dimensions more so than by gallons) for each species. However, I think any "rule" as to how many fish, or how many total inches of fish, can be maintained in a tank is as meaningful as the often repeated watts-per-gallon ratio for lighting. For example, 2 fish may be 1 too many in a 200g tank if one of those fish is undulated trigger.
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Stop the hypocrisy
- Thread starter Ben 4
- Start date
SPC
I meant 10% of the tank, most of the fish spend most of their time in 10% of the tank. What do you consider a human predator? Sure there are many dangers outside and inside my dwelling but I live in the US and I definitely don't expend any energy avoiding people who want to eat me. Perhaps you do and you need to work that out. If you have any fish, based on your comments, then you are a hypocrite. I do sincerely believe that My aquariums are more comfortable for my fish than the ocean. No storms, no parasites,no pollution, no cyanide fishermen, no eels and no sharks. My fish eat a wider variety of food than would consider to consume in the ocean.
Miklos
Not to discredit your statement but what documentation is there to support that there is any deleterious effect from stunting fish, including a suppressed immune system? Public aquariums intentionally stunt shark growth by limiting their food.
Now I want all of you reading this to pay close attention. There is absolutely no documentation available revealing to us the level of self-awareness (consciousness) present in the pisces psyche. Most of the research involving this area of animal behaviour science has been done on birds and mammals. Most of all the findings suggest that all animals are aware to the extent that they require to grow mature and procreate. From this it is possible to infer that the following represent the priorities in the mind of a fish.
self preservation- stay alive
nutrition- stay alive until tommorrow
competition- dont let it eat your food or get your girl
procreation- make some babies and pass some genes
This is not to suggest that this is all fish think about, just their emotional needs. Also, why do fish spend so much time swimming around? they are looking for food.
I'm not posting to be right but just to enrich the conversation, please keep this in mind when responding.
I meant 10% of the tank, most of the fish spend most of their time in 10% of the tank. What do you consider a human predator? Sure there are many dangers outside and inside my dwelling but I live in the US and I definitely don't expend any energy avoiding people who want to eat me. Perhaps you do and you need to work that out. If you have any fish, based on your comments, then you are a hypocrite. I do sincerely believe that My aquariums are more comfortable for my fish than the ocean. No storms, no parasites,no pollution, no cyanide fishermen, no eels and no sharks. My fish eat a wider variety of food than would consider to consume in the ocean.
Miklos
Not to discredit your statement but what documentation is there to support that there is any deleterious effect from stunting fish, including a suppressed immune system? Public aquariums intentionally stunt shark growth by limiting their food.
Now I want all of you reading this to pay close attention. There is absolutely no documentation available revealing to us the level of self-awareness (consciousness) present in the pisces psyche. Most of the research involving this area of animal behaviour science has been done on birds and mammals. Most of all the findings suggest that all animals are aware to the extent that they require to grow mature and procreate. From this it is possible to infer that the following represent the priorities in the mind of a fish.
self preservation- stay alive
nutrition- stay alive until tommorrow
competition- dont let it eat your food or get your girl
procreation- make some babies and pass some genes
This is not to suggest that this is all fish think about, just their emotional needs. Also, why do fish spend so much time swimming around? they are looking for food.
I'm not posting to be right but just to enrich the conversation, please keep this in mind when responding.
Skylsdale- Having read many books and mag.'s, I agree that the info gleaned fromm them can be misleading at times and downright unethical at others but.. there has to be some form of authority that the average hobbyist can refer to and most books seem to be fairly accurate, for the most part.
Boards such as this one are also excellent sources of information but plenty of misinformation is passed along here as well.
SPC- How do we know that the fish in well kept and maintained tanks are not indeed happier and more comfortable in their surroundings than they are in the wild. Since we can never get into the heads of these fish, who knows?
Boards such as this one are also excellent sources of information but plenty of misinformation is passed along here as well.
SPC- How do we know that the fish in well kept and maintained tanks are not indeed happier and more comfortable in their surroundings than they are in the wild. Since we can never get into the heads of these fish, who knows?
Posted by coralite:
SPC
I meant 10% of the tank, most of the fish spend most of their time in 10% of the tank.
- You lost me here, do you mean to say that a tang, wrasse or trigger spend most of their time in 10% of the tank?
What do you consider a human predator?
-Uh, anything that could injure a human.
Sure there are many dangers outside and inside my dwelling but I live in the US and I definitely don't expend any energy avoiding people who want to eat me. Perhaps you do and you need to work that out.
-Oh but I'll bet you do. Do you wear a seat belt when you drive? Do your kids sit in car seats? Do you have a smoke detector? Do you walk around at night in the seedy part of town, BTW some people have no choice even in the US. Do you practice safe sex, and on and on. Now if you really think about this maybe the fish has a better life in the ocean than we do. Another factor to consider is the natural life span of a fish in the ocean as compared to the average life span in a fish tank.
If you have any fish, based on your comments, then you are a hypocrite.
- I knew this was coming. You know coralight there is such a thing as compromise. Here is what I have in my 180 gallon reef:
1. A mated pair of perculas.
2. A mated pair of banggais
3. 1 royal gramma (had 2, one jumped out, will be getting another one.)
You may notice something about this stocking list, I am trying to provide an opportunity for all basic biological needs to be met.
I do sincerely believe that My aquariums are more comfortable for my fish than the ocean. No storms, no parasites,no pollution, no cyanide fishermen, no eels and no sharks. My fish eat a wider variety of food than would consider to consume in the ocean.
-I will point this out again, your fish do not have an opportunity to satisfy their need to procreate or to intermingle with their own kind. You can dismiss this as not important to you if it does not fit in with your plans if you like, but the fact is the drive to reproduce is imporatant for all animals.
Steve
SPC
I meant 10% of the tank, most of the fish spend most of their time in 10% of the tank.
- You lost me here, do you mean to say that a tang, wrasse or trigger spend most of their time in 10% of the tank?
What do you consider a human predator?
-Uh, anything that could injure a human.
Sure there are many dangers outside and inside my dwelling but I live in the US and I definitely don't expend any energy avoiding people who want to eat me. Perhaps you do and you need to work that out.
-Oh but I'll bet you do. Do you wear a seat belt when you drive? Do your kids sit in car seats? Do you have a smoke detector? Do you walk around at night in the seedy part of town, BTW some people have no choice even in the US. Do you practice safe sex, and on and on. Now if you really think about this maybe the fish has a better life in the ocean than we do. Another factor to consider is the natural life span of a fish in the ocean as compared to the average life span in a fish tank.
If you have any fish, based on your comments, then you are a hypocrite.
- I knew this was coming. You know coralight there is such a thing as compromise. Here is what I have in my 180 gallon reef:
1. A mated pair of perculas.
2. A mated pair of banggais
3. 1 royal gramma (had 2, one jumped out, will be getting another one.)
You may notice something about this stocking list, I am trying to provide an opportunity for all basic biological needs to be met.
I do sincerely believe that My aquariums are more comfortable for my fish than the ocean. No storms, no parasites,no pollution, no cyanide fishermen, no eels and no sharks. My fish eat a wider variety of food than would consider to consume in the ocean.
-I will point this out again, your fish do not have an opportunity to satisfy their need to procreate or to intermingle with their own kind. You can dismiss this as not important to you if it does not fit in with your plans if you like, but the fact is the drive to reproduce is imporatant for all animals.
Steve
Posted by Ben4:
SPC- How do we know that the fish in well kept and maintained tanks are not indeed happier and more comfortable in their surroundings than they are in the wild. Since we can never get into the heads of these fish, who knows?
-Please see my above response to coralite.
Steve
SPC- How do we know that the fish in well kept and maintained tanks are not indeed happier and more comfortable in their surroundings than they are in the wild. Since we can never get into the heads of these fish, who knows?
-Please see my above response to coralite.
Steve
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