Please read and temporarily boycott eBay!

[JT]

Fellow Hobbyists:

Over the past six months, the number of auctions on ebay for living corals have tripled. This needs to stop. This practice is going against everything AMDA, MAC, and the US Coral Reef Task Force are trying to fix in the industry. The sale of corals on ebay also violates their own rules but they do not understand this. I have emailed them on numerous occassions to stop this practice but get a generic form email back each time stating that they do not consider corals to be animals. Below is yet another email I have just sent to ebay.

eBay:

This is a plea on behalf of the entire marine ornamentals hobby, industry, and the coral reefs itself to request, again, that you prohibit the sale of live corals on ebay.

I beg to you that this email be forward to management immediately. Previous requests to this generic mailbox have resulted back in emails that say ebay does not consider corals to be "animals". I have a real problem with this, corals are indeed animals. In your rules and regulations, "42020003 Questionable Items: Prohibited Items: Animals and Wildlife Products", you reference CITES for other animals. However, CITES aggressively covers corals as well. Corals are a CITES 2 organism and should not be sold on ebay or Ebay could be held responsible for dealing in regulated marine organisms.

Several auctions, such as #1309669351, are for extremely fragile living corals (Goniopora). Goniopora is a coral that has a long lifespan in the wild but does extremely poorly in captivity because we don't know how to care for it. It is wrong for most marine ornamentals stores to sell them let alone an individual on ebay.

Who am I? Joy Meadows and myself, JT Croteau, own and operate Harbor Aquatics. We are a importer, exporter, wholesaler, and retailer of marine ornamentals (marine fish, invertabrates, and corals). I am also a representative of CORL, The Coalition of Reef Lovers, a non-profit organiztion devoted to the protection and sustainable use of the worlds coral reefs. We are proud members, and supporters, of The Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) and the American Marinelife Dealears Association (AMDA).

This email is also being sent to members of AMDA and MAC, along with several members of the United States Coral Reef Task Force. It is additionally being sent to leading authors, marine biologists, and Mark Schick of the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago. Lastly, it is being re-transmitted on two popular hobbyist forums, http://www.reefs.org/ and http://www.reefcentral.com/

If this email is not taken seriously, nor passed on to proper management within ebay, a petition will be formed and the media will be notified. eBay can no longer claim that corals are not considered "animals". ebay allowing corals to be sold goes against everything that AMDA, MAC, and the US Coral Reef Task Force are trying to correct within the Marine Ornamentals hobby.

Thanks for your time. If you require any further assistance from me on this, please do not hesitate to contact me. I want to work with you on this, I use ebay alot myself but it's time for ebay to understand that corals are a living animal and very fragile.

JT Croteau
Harbor Aquatics
219.764.4404
[email protected]

 

[samurai9]

JT, i completely agree with you on this,but i have a couple of questions. First, have you tried e-mailing those who are selling live coral on ebay? Possibly they don't know what they are doing is illegal. Second, what category do other life forms such as macro algae fall into? Thanks for making us aware. I didn't know this was happening on ebay.

 

[jamesw]

JT: Right on.

Corals are INDEED animals and they are listed in CITES App II.

If ebay doesn't pay attention to your emails this time we will help you "get their attention."

Cheers
James Wiseman

 

[samurai9]

JT i already sent an email to someone on ebay who's selling live coral, referring them to this thread.

 

[JoshF]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how is selling frags on eBay different than selling frags here on reefs.org? Or are these people directly importing from overseas and selling them on eBay? That would be VERY different indeed. Just curious...

Josh Fox

 

[StirCrazy]

I totaly agree but to play the devils hand you said "Corals are INDEED animals" are they? they have more in commen with a plant than an animal (inface I would like to see exactly if they are plant or animal) .. and this could be why they are allowed to be sold on e-bay.

Steve

 

[JoshF]

They are INDEED animals. The corals are either solitary or colonial polyps classified unambiguously as animals. They eat, have sex, poop, and are evolutionarily in the Animal kingdom. It's not even a question of technicality. They ARE animals.

Josh Fox

P.S. on rereading this, I think the fact that they poop is the crucial evolutionary fact here.... okay, MASSIVE sarcasm. I need to go to sleep earlier. I'm not used to getting off of work at midnight....

 

[StirCrazy]

do you have a link to a clasification site that shows the biological class of various corals? I am not saying that they are not animals, this just has me interested now..

Steve

 

[naesco]

Please provide the email address of ebay. One for Canada if you have it.
Please let me know the full name and city where the President of Ebay lives.
If you have not heard positively from Ebay by Christmas, I will phone its President at home on Christmas to remind him.
Thank you

 

[HARRISON]

Ah yes, much better for people to have to go to pet stores and buy wild corals "taken" from the ocean than to trade frags on ebay...

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with Harrison, what is the big deal? Why not sell them on E-Bay? If you want our support, please explain how it is so bad.

 

[Chucker]

The difference between a sale on a UBB and on ebay is that at least here the coral is being sold by and to a hobbyist who at least has made an effort to educate themselves. Part of the point being made here is that corals (which usually are not frags) on ebay are being sold to a customer with no idea of their previous experience, ability to care for coral X, current tank inhabitants, etc. Another point made in the companion post on RC also notes that they are sometimes shipped via 2 or 3 day USPS- much longer than they should be sitting in a bag.

The root of the problem is that ebay is allowing people to break their own rules, and is ignorant about fixing what's broke. I'd suggest folks actually take a look at the corals being offered on ebay than to ask what's wrong with the system here. If you find a coral for sale, click the " view seller's other auctions" link to see what else the retailer is offering. Seeing is believing.

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Chucker ]</p>

 

[SeaView]

JT,

If you were not a retailer of corals it might be easier to swallow your argument. It's seems most if not all the coral auctions on e-bay are from fellow retailers who take advantage of e-bay as another advertising medium. Are they breaking the rules of e-bay? Yes. Other than that the problems of shipping and selling delicate organisms permeates the entire industry not just those selling on e-bay. Are you saying if they had a web page that would make it all OK?

Not that I would buy a coral off e-bay, but if they listed a e-mail or phone number and through contact the seller was knowlegable and practiced the necessary safe shipping methods. What would be the difference from buying or trading anywhere else.

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

StirCrazy,
All corals belong to kingdom Animalia, phylum Cnidaria. There are three classes of Cnidaria, Scyphozoa (to which jellyfish belong), Hydrozoa (fire coral, hydroids and Stylasterina), and Anthozoa, to which corals belong. Anthazoa has three subclasses, one of which, Tabulata, is extinct. The first of the other two, subclass Zoantharia, includes orders Zoanthidea (Palythoa, etc), Corallimorpharia (Discosoma, etc), Actinaria (sea anemones), Antipatharia (black corals), Ceriantharia (tube-anemones), Rugosa (extinct), and Scleractinia (all hard/stony corals). The other subclass of Anthozoa that is still extant is Alcyonaria. This includes orders Pennatulacea (sea pens), Stolonifera (Clavularia, etc.), Telestacea (Coelogorgia, etc.), Coenothecalia (blue coral), Alcyonacea (Sarcophyton, Dendronepthya, etc.), and Gorgonacea (all gorgonians, sea fans, etc.).

Well said, JT, and well supported I'm sure you'll be. You certainly have mine...

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: galleon ]</p>

 

[Tybond]

Chucker,

Why do you feal that a person who sells a frag/coral on ebay doesn't know about the coral they are selling but the sellers here on the UBB know more?

Also why would you assume the person buying these corals doesn't know anything about the coral they are buying just because they buy it from an auction as opposed to the UBB?

I feal the same as the poster who stated the question what makes it different selling a frag here on the UBB or on an auction site such as ebay or any other auction site.

The only difference I personally see is that the forum sales are a set price and auctions go to the highest bidder. you can't possitively say a person selling on ebay knows less about their corals than a seller here.

I am not trying to flame you for your opinion or anything but I think its wrong to say that someone who chooses to sell there items on an auction site is breaking the law and doing something morally wrong but if they sell them here on the boards they are saving the wild animals of the reefs and should be praised.

I do agree that corals are living animals as I'v watched mine eat, sleep, grow and I truelly feal they are a living creature and should be considered so, but how can a person justify that it is anymore appropriate to sell these animals here as opposed to somewhere else?

I agree that ebay is going against their own policy pertaining to the sale of animals and this is a valid issue that should be persued and I would like to aid in the effort but It is hard for me to think that just because a coral is being sold elsewhere it is any different than selling them here.

IMO, This type of action could very possible endanger the sale/trade of corals by private individuals everywhere and would this be better?

Say the appropriate organizations do persue the sale of corals on auction sites as being wrongfull. Wouldn't they morally have to extend this persuit to the guy or gal on this and any other forum selling their frags?

IMO, the issue at hand is to make ebay realize that they are going against their rules by allowing the sale of animals on their site. Not to stop the sale of frags or corals on their site because the sellers and buyers on their site are uneducated.

Sincerely,
ty

 

[Tybond]

To validate my statements above,
Please check out the following link and decide for yourself if sellers on ebay are just unknowlegably handling there animals.
Ebay sale of sps

 

[EnvironmentalWacko]

Coming from an Environmental Wacko,

I don't see where any of this action is illegal
if there aren't federal laws prohibiting these
sales.

To do (or not) anything on the basis of morality
is virtuous. But most people don't make their
decisions at this level of conscience.

Ebay may have a "policy" but these often are
guidlines in cases where ethics are a fuzzy
grey line dividing right from wrong.

Auctions yield higher average sales.

If the corals and those small animals are
delivered as healthy as those that your LFS
receives, shouldn't you as a consumer have
this option.

Maybe we should be more realistic about what
the future holds: Increased competition leads
to lower prices. Lower costs create new consumers
and therefore a increase the demand on the
natural reefs.

Maybe we should outlaw the import of *all
animals from the reefs. I don't trust the
person who made the initial complaint because
of the conflict of interests.

How you like those apples?

 

[StirCrazy]

thanks galleon, thats what I was looking for..

as for that e-bay add.. hell that is more care and explanation that most lfs I have been to offer.. but now there is the problem of no animals suposed to be auctioned... has anyone checked the rull (the offical legal talk) to see if aquarium trade has any exemptions?

Steve

 

[Downdeep]

Jt-
If Ebay has a policy against selling these animals, then by all means they should enforce it, I don't have a problem with that. Now lets get to the issue of selling through Ebay. How is it any different than selling through any mail order buisness like Harbor aquatics or FF Express? You truthfully have no Idea who you are selling to. And if you look at the link that Bytor posted, that ad clearly states some requirements necessary to keep that animal. And also says that if the buyer has any questions, to contact him. Thats a whole lot more information than my LFS gives on any animal.
Every person buying corals should be educated about their needs, but whos responsibility is that? A seller can only do so much, then its up to the individual to go from there. Like seaview said in his post, most of the sellers that have live coral auctions are retailers that are using Ebay as a way to get more exposure. whats wrong with that?
As far as the goniopora ad that you clearly stated, I agree, they shouldn't be sold. I also don't think that Elegance corals should be sold. But at the same time, the place that you work for has both of them for sale on their website.
http://www.harboraquatics.com/hcoral2.html
If you're going to pick on people for the things they do, make sure that you're perfect first.

 

[JT]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Downdeep:
<strong>Now lets get to the issue of selling through Ebay.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is not my issue so I can't, and won't, comment. Like I said, I have no problem with people selling corals on aquabid.com or other auction sites that allow live animals to be sold. eBay does not allow it, that is my beef. eBay does not even acknowledge that corals are animals.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Downdeep:
<strong>http://www.harboraquatics.com/hcoral2.html
If you're going to pick on people for the things they do, make sure that you're perfect first.</strong><hr></blockquote>
First off, just because I have a picture of a Goniopora, with some basic care info doesn't necessarily mean we sell them. When Gary created the site, it was to also educate people and the site reflects that. Do you see a price tag on that Goniopora? Do you see it on our "stocklist"? No. Do we sell Goniopora? To answer this honestly, yes.. sometimes we do. This is because Goniopora is often used as a filler item by suppliers. I am not going to throw it away. I am going to try and keep it healthy in our tanks any hopefully find a good home for it. We do not order Goniopora specifically. This is one of the things MAC is trying to fix through certification and education of collectors and exporters.

But again, this is not the issue I have with eBay.

- JT