Can bouts of "Ich" just come and go on their own i

[vwelter]

My purple tang was covered in spots 3 days ago. I was going to put him in a new tank I set up as a hospital tank, but now he looks great, no spots. The cleaner shrimp has been really working on him alot, so did that take care of it? Do I have to worry about not removing him and treating him? My Yellow Tang and Royal Gramma are showing absolutely no signs of disease right now....do I need to worry about them getting it next?

Thanks from a newbie Reef Tank owner

 

[ZigZagZombie]

If it was me , I would just leave the fish in the tank. Soak there food in Garlic extract. I also use Selcon on there food too. This helps in boosting there ability to fight off the ich on there own. Sometimes moving the fish can stress them out more then help. If they get real bad then moving them would be wise. I have kicked ich with this way.

 

[naesco]

Yes I agree do the garlic extract thing.
Ich will fall off the fish and go into its 'tomont' stage where it will come back with a vengence.
Even during the garlic treatment, if the ich disappears continue for the 30 day ich cyle and y;ou will have it beat.
But unless your tank is large you will continue to have this problem as you have both a yellow and a purple in the same tank and most often they outstress eachother until one wins but often both do

 

[vwelter]

could you be more specific with how I should use the garlic?



Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

There are two schools of thought on the garlic issue. At this point the evidence in its favor is anectodal, I have not found nor heard of good scientific studies proving efficacy. Garlic, in my opinion, isn't exactly found in the ocean, but many other things are, which the tangs make use of. As best you can, make use of them, too.

I will give you this, though; you have the cleaners that are going to town on the tang--this means they're doing their job--and the other fish are well. Leave the tang in situ to avoid stress (it won't affect just this fish, but also the others who have no idea that you're banging around in their tank just for this one).

What really needs to be addressed more specifically are the issues of overall water quality, stress, and nutrition. Ich is found in nature as well as our aquariums, the difference between animals afflicted more likely than not being health. Therefore, I agree that stress (in the form of moving the animal) will exacerbate the condition.

One of the problems with following water quality parameters is that hobbyists can really only test for so much (the usual suspects being ammonia and it's oxidized cousins, nitrite and nitrate). What we can test for and what may affect water quality in a manner detrimental to fish, then, creates a bit of a dilemma in that we cannot always know exactly what the problem with the quality is. This is why aggressive skimming and regular water changes (personally I prefer many small over a few large) are the best tools at our disposal to correct problems presented as health troubles.

I will suggest, if you haven't already, to use a refugium or other method by which to grow algal forms readily consumed by the tangs, as well continuing to use the supplement. Offer fresh foods such as small krill and pieces of squid/clam/octopus/shrimp, as well as spirulina, noori (the sushi wrapping), and fresh greens free-fed (copious amounts of romaine are consumed at the local aquarium). This, of course, means that efficient foam fractionation is an absolute necessity (unless you have free access to all the clean ocean water you want--then make daily water changes to control water quality).

As for stress, I'm sure you have spent plenty of time observing your wards. Is this fish on "the bottom rung"? Or is he first to the dinner plate? Is he disturbed by people walking by the tank, lights coming on and off, noises? Is there anyone who might be hitting the tank or otherwise creating a very unnatural situation for him? Is he simply a new addition (which would typically relegate him to being low man on the totem pole, especially if that yellow tang is well established)? How about intraspecific aggression? There are clearly many factors that go into what stresses a fish. I think that I've had such good success with tangs because I tend to treat them like horses: they are geared to "herd", there must be one dominant male and female, they have evolved to graze all day (rather than having one or two big meals), so on and so forth.

 

[naesco]

Sea Maiden for many months the issue of garlic extact use has come up and th comment is that success is anecdotal. But, I and others have suggested that those who challenge its success and who have some credentials, test it. There is no shortage of icky fish to do a proper test. It surprises me that as ich is the number one problem for fish that no one has done this.

Here is the garlic treatment regimen for mild ich, fungal and bacterial infections.
Purchase some garlic extract from a health food store. Kayolic is one brand
Put some dry food (because it absorbs more) in a lid and squish some garlic extract on the food. Let soak in for 15 minutes. Throw the food in the tank. Feed 4 or 5 times a day and only garlic soaked food. The idea here is to get as much garlic into the fish as possible. Feed for thirty days even if the ich goes away because that is the ich life cycle.
I feed garlic soaked food whenever I add a new fish as an ich preventative and since doing so have never had an ich infection.
IMO everyone should have a bottle in your refridgerator just in case.

 

[Anonymous]

Sea Maiden for many months the issue of garlic extact use has come up and th comment is that success is anecdotal. But, I and others have suggested that those who challenge its success and who have some credentials, test it. There is no shortage of icky fish to do a proper test. It surprises me that as ich is the number one problem for fish that no one has done this.

It surprises/concerns/alarms me more that people who promote its success and people who make garlic products for the industry have not tested it.

 

[Anonymous]

'the use of garlic as a fish disease remedy may not be limited to parasites. Dr.Angelo Colorni of Israel Oceanographic and Limnological Research LTD investigated using garlic on fish for its mild antibiotic properties ['Histopathology of Sea Bass Dicentrarchus labrax Eperimentally infected with Mycobacterium marinum and treated with streptomycin and garlic(allium sativum) extract'-Aquaculture 160:1-17.]

from the article " parasites and garlic " be Terry D. Bartelme in the march '03 issue of aquarium fish magazine, vol.15, #3

an excellent article on the use of garlic in the marine aquarium :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

and to answer the original question of the thread title: :wink:

while ich may appear to 'come and go' it never really leaves the tank :wink:

it is the obvious manifestation that 'comes and goes'-the parasite is always there-in the form of a 'subclinical' infection (present and living-but not obervable/readily apparent)

i have seen tanks where some of the inhabitants occasionally developed a few spots of ich, which would then dissapear-used to occur in one of my tanks- a spot here and there, then it would go away, for years-the fish always shook it off, and never appeared any worse for the wear,-including a hippo tang :wink:

-this is pretty much what also occurs in the wild-many fish get just a 'touch' of ich-only seriously weak, or old, fish, will ever get 'covered'.

hth

 

[Anonymous]

This is the very first published scientific report I've heard of. I look forward to reading it.

I will tell you this, I have never used garlic, and have not ever had a problem with ich. Before someone says, "Go try it on your fish!" let me tell you that I haven't had my own tank for years. I have continued to help others (mostly for pay), and again, as long as they followed my golden rule we never had a problem with ich. No garlic, but no ich.

At the local aquarium, I have yet to see any aquarist use garlic in the feed, though they do use very fresh, restaurant quality foods, along with vitamin supplements (I believe it's actually been created on site), and excellent water quality. Not to mention a religiously practiced 30 day q/t, and they do use filtered seawater as well as hugemongous foam fractionators.

We do see ich there (in q/t), but it's always treated with copper. When I asked about the use of garlic, I got funny looks and, "Who have you been talking to?" :lol: Then I was informed that it's hardly proven, it's a "snake oil", if you have good nutrition and water quality you won't need it, so on and so forth. These are folks with degrees on the subject, and I have a hard time arguing with them at this point (of course, why would I if I agree?). When I posed my query to the aquarium vet...well, let's just say he had a really good laugh. I won't say that he knows everything, but I believe he knows more than I do.

 

[naesco]

Sea maiden it is not very funny if you have ich in your reef.
You have the following options.
1. Ignore it and hope it will go away.
2. Risk putting chemicals in your tank like rid ich and greenex
3. Removing all of your fish into a QT for 30 days and treating with chemicals
4. Removing all of your fish into a QT for 30 days and use the hyposalinity approach
5. Treat with garlic extract soaked foods in your reef.

In order for 3 and 4 to work you have to catch all the fish which means viturally taking apart your tank to catch them.

I have read many reports on this board about success with using garlic extract and also lack of success but I have yet to read a post where a reefer has indicated that the garlic extract treatment regimen has done any harm to their fish or coral.

It is not surprising that your LFS and industry friends would think using garlic is strange. They make a business out of replacing fish lost to ich, fungal and bacterial infections and selling hundreds of chemical ich treatments which do not work.
The "snake oil" comments are made by those who are dated in their knowledge about the latest treatments for ich and those who have never tried it.

 

[anthem]

I like garlic. It works as an excellent food stimulant. In terms of garlic use, i think its a good idea. In terms of using it to treat cyrpto, I have very large concerns for it. Yes, a study would be good, but I think most researchers pretty much know that it isn't effective to compare against things that do work. Hobbiests are just trying to find a 'shortcut' method to doing things correctly by desperately hoping for a 'reef safe' solution to this problem (cryptocaryon). So far, nothing has been found - we all hope it does, but as of yet, garlic isn't really a solution yet.

Yes, people ask for proof. At the same time, the garlic proponents always trump out the same well written article and justify their stance, when all the author asserts is that it needs more research. The only thing that can be gained from it is that it shows 'some' promise. That same authro will also attest that the only proven crypto cure is hypo or copper. . . . .

In terms of always present - false. It is an obligate parasite and while certainly present in many tanks, it is NOT always present. Saying it is always present shows a lack of understanding of the parasite and its lifecycle.

In terms of fish removal, I'm not so sure that's the problem. It's more of if they have an adequate treatment tank to treat all the fish. Capture of fish isn't that difficult in most hobbiests homes by simple draining of 75% of the water. It only gets difficult when you get to very large tanks (and we're talking huge (500+ gallons). There may also be an issue with truly small crevices, but generally those work themselves out as you guide your fish to open areas of the tank. My tank is larger than most, and I have successfully removed fish by draining the tank quite a few times for whatever reason.

 

[Anonymous]

Sea maiden it is not very funny if you have ich in your reef.
You have the following options.
1. Ignore it and hope it will go away.
2. Risk putting chemicals in your tank like rid ich and greenex
3. Removing all of your fish into a QT for 30 days and treating with chemicals
4. Removing all of your fish into a QT for 30 days and use the hyposalinity approach
5. Treat with garlic extract soaked foods in your reef.

In order for 3 and 4 to work you have to catch all the fish which means viturally taking apart your tank to catch them.

I have read many reports on this board about success with using garlic extract and also lack of success but I have yet to read a post where a reefer has indicated that the garlic extract treatment regimen has done any harm to their fish or coral.

It is not surprising that your LFS and industry friends would think using garlic is strange. They make a business out of replacing fish lost to ich, fungal and bacterial infections and selling hundreds of chemical ich treatments which do not work.
The "snake oil" comments are made by those who are dated in their knowledge about the latest treatments for ich and those who have never tried it.

Naesco, I think you've made a mistake here. Yes, I've worked "the industry", but the folks I referred to aren't in the trade to sell fish. It's a very good public aquarium where I'm a staff member. The only thing they're trying to "sell" are tickets to the aquarium.

Having kept plenty of reef sys's for more years than I care to recount (though many more outside of my own home), I am very well aware (and well-versed) of the issues you bring up.

The "snake oil" comments are from folks who are experts in their fields, and it's their business to be very up to date as well as completely scientific in their approaches to keeping the tens of thousands of animals kept at said aquarium. So, in the respect that we've never tried, yes, you're right. We also don't have the time, space, staff, or funds necessary to put to rest a questionable issue when it's better solved, in this setting, by addressing the issues I mentioned before.

Anthem, while I haven't the time to link you to such proof, yes, copper treatments are the only proven, effective cure for ich. It is the standard at the aquarium to copper almost all fish upon arrival into q/t, where the standard is a minimum of one month (30 days).

 

[naesco]

Sea Maiden mayI suggest the following.
Have the pubic aquarium invest in the following
1. two bare 10 gallon QT tanks equipped
2. one bottle of garlic extract
3. two mildly ich infested fish

Have a qualified staff member oversee the experiment to see if the garlic experiment works and let us know.

I am sure you will agree that it is a modest investment in both time and money.

 

[Anonymous]

Sea Maiden mayI suggest the following.
Have the pubic aquarium invest in the following
1. two bare 10 gallon QT tanks equipped
2. one bottle of garlic extract
3. two mildly ich infested fish

Have a qualified staff member oversee the experiment to see if the garlic experiment works and let us know.

I am sure you will agree that it is a modest investment in both time and money.

2 ten gallon tanks and 2 infested fish do not a conclusive,or scientifically valid result make :wink:

 

[naesco]

Yea I know but than the BS 'snake oil' comments from the experts stop.

I hope one day some one will do a proper study though.

 

[Anonymous]

Look, Naesco, we disagree, and they disagree. To say that what these professionals are saying is BS is, in my opinion, a load of it as well.

Is it not possible to disagree in a friendly manner? If you believe so wholeheartedly that it is the reason for your success, how about you do what you've proposed?

Also, to "invest" in two ten gallon tanks to prove the efficacy of garlic is, for this aquarium, such a monumental waste of time and energy it's not even worth arguing. They have a very specificl mission, and it does not at all include proving or disproving efficacy of garlic.

They are, however, the only place that has bred and reared to adulthood Weedy Sea Dragons. For which Kristy won the prize last year (from the AZA)! Woo hoo Kristy!

 

[naesco]

I would like to have someone with credentials to do even the most basic experiment on garlic extract.
Anyone who is a professional, has read the postive comments on the board about the use of garlic extract and has not tried garlic extract themselves would never use the term 'snake oil

The bottom line is that if you have tried it and it does not work for you, you have the right to comment.
If you have not tried it and have no interest in doing so, please keep your statements on this subject to yourself.
It is a very offensive statement for those of us who have success using it and recommending it to other reefers

Seamaiden, you reached squat. Good for you.

 

[Anonymous]

I would like to have someone with credentials to do even the most basic experiment on garlic extract.
Anyone who is a professional, has read the postive comments on the board about the use of garlic extract and has not tried garlic extract themselves would never use the term 'snake oil

The bottom line is that if you have tried it and it does not work for you, you have the right to comment.
If you have not tried it and have no interest in doing so, please keep your statements on this subject to yourself.
It is a very offensive statement for those of us who have success using it and recommending it to other reefers
Seamaiden, you reached squat. Good for you.

you also trying to be the thought police, too? :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[ZigZagZombie]

Naesco is right....you do only have a few options on treating ich. I used garlic because catching your fish and then putting them in a 10 or 20gal. tank can do more harm then good. In my case Garlic soaked food did the job quite well. Don't discourage others from trying it, since it might work for them also. Isn't it all about keeping your fish as healthy as you can in a captive environment?? By any means possible??