Weekly Discussion -Reef Clubs- are they fooling themselves?

[Anonymous]

Weekly Discussion - Reef clubs - are they fooling themselves?

I have noticed that some of my local clubs claim to want to do what is best for the hobby and planet, but raffle wild caught colonies as door prizes, and many members get all crazy excited when a LFS gets a new shipment in from a far away place.
Do you think reef clubs should dispense with the ethical rhetoric in their mission statements, or that it is simply ok to 'try' when convenient?


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[hillbilly]

I think they should dispense with the ethical
rhetoric. Seems wrong to me to preach one
thing, yet practice another. Still, I envy people
who even have a club in their area!

 

[Anonymous]

Is it OK for the club to endorse one thing, but for the members to practice another?

 

[hillbilly]

Not OK to endorse one thing, but practice another.

 

[Len]

Boy, this is a sticky topic

In the real world, ethics aren't "all or nothing" ventures but rather perpetual comprimises of our idealism for pragmatism. Many of the things we do in everyday life are hypocritical relative to our personal ethics, but that doesn't mean we should dispense with them. I'd much rather see people work towards achieving their ideals then getting rid of them entirely or stop encouraging others to do better then perhaps they have done.

Should it be ok for a society to espouse one thing but its members to practice another? No. But is it better for a society to encourage ethical husbandry even if it's not practicing it on an absolute basis? IMO, yes. Hypocritcal? Yes. But it still serves a noble and necessary role nonetheless.

 

[JennM]

I haven't posted here since who-knows-when, but the subject matter caught my eye, since I founded a club.

Something that isn't considered in the question, is the mandate of the club. If the club's mandate is to support only captive propagated species, then yeah, it's hypocritical to raffle a wild colony.

Personally I am not against ethical and sustainable collection of wild caught species - anybody who reads the industry forum here knows my views on that.

I think clubs are a great vehicle to exchange husbandry information, equipment, knowledge, surplus livestock (frags etc.) and it's a great vehicle to EDUCATE those caring hobbyists who want to know more.

Unfortunately, less than 1/3 of all hobbyists will ever belong to any sort of club or society, so there is a huge proportion of people we will never reach that way, but for those that do, it's a great resource, and a great way to meet others with similar interests.

Many will join a club just to get the freebies/discounts. I've seen this. Our club has about 100 members in good standing, but only about half of those ever come to meetings. They all present their card for a discount, and many couldn't give a rat's hiney where a specimen originated (or its capture method), just as long as they get the cheapest price. Sometimes I think that my attempts to enlighten some have fallen on deaf ears... however, I'll keep trying.

Jenn

 

[hillbilly]

I don't have anything against any reef club or anybody else
who wants to purchase wild corals. It's legal and their right
to do so. However, why say we should all buy fragged corals,
then try to outrun your buddies to the LFS to get the best of
the new wild caught shipment? Why not just be honest about it ?
To yourself, and others. I have not purcashed a coral since 1997.
I just trade with people for different ones. I've fragged my corals
hundreds of times over the yrs. I rarely buy anything for the hobby
anymore. I just trade frags for it. Even my 11yr. old neice knows
how to frag sps. No reason to ever take an sps from the wild IMO.
All I'm saying is we should not be hypocitcal about it. I agree with
the above that people will always shop for price first anyway.
I'm afraid one day collection will become illeagal. Then it won't an issue
anymore.

 

[Anonymous]

What Len said.

Louey

 

[Anonymous]

I think conservation and captive propagation should be the goal.

Now with that said, there are plenty of wild corals where snipping a frag wouldn't have any impact on the reef. Sure, if it is done enough, there will be a negative impact. That's why I have one coral taken from the wild - an Acro, which should grow back quickly on the reef. The rest of my stuff is all frags from friends (fellow BRS members).

 

[JennM]

I still think the issue is being clouded.

You are imposing your views of what a "club" should be.

Our club's mandate is to EDUCATE. We show various aspects of the hobby, including collection techniques (had a member give an extensive fish collection lecture), technology and how it applies to our hobby, and yes, propagation techniques, diseases and other subjects.

Our MANDATE is not to espouse only captive propagation, so how would be we hypocritical?

If it's as black and white as you seem to think, why be in the hobby at all? Even captive frags originated from a wild caught colony - so we all have blood on our hands.

IMO a club should educate, and help members make the best decisions for them.

Stopping all collection of ornamental fish and inverts would devastate some economies of the people who collect them. I'd much rather see them collect safely, ethically and sustainably, so they could continue to derive an honest living for generations to come, without ravaging the reefs. It can be done.

I also support captive propagation, when possible, but I don't think that it is exclusive. New brood stock will always have to come from somewhere.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

You've got to admit that many/some members of clubs don't care aboutthe club mandate, and just want deals, access to info they feel they need, and access to swaps.

I am part of a club that has a '100% propagated' tank in and LFS. Nice project, good intention, and a nice way to help educate the public. The same club often purchases a wild caught coral to frag up at meetings. Do you see the two practices as conflicting?

 

[JennM]

Yes there is a fair percentage of people who just join to "partake" and not to "give back".

I still fail to see how taking wild colonies/fish is "evil" or bad?

Educate the hobbyist who wishes to learn. Teach him/her to expect and demand ethically collected or propagated specimens.

It's only a conflict if the official mandate of a particular club is for all propagated specimens, and they are buying wild ones.

I don't know of any club that ONLY supports captive propagated livestock.

Again - the two issues are being confused.

A club environment doesn't necessarily dictate where we can or cannot (or should or should not) obtain our specimens.

Educate the hobbyist about the pros and cons of both captive AND wild caught and let him decide for himself.

Jenn

 

[Syris]

I am a fairly new member of the BRS. From what I have seen this a club that tries to educate members and make it fun. I think they have down a very good job of sticking to the "Mission Statement". The reason I joined was to make friendships with people that have similar interest and to share our knowledge.
Now I do relize this is only one club of hundreds across the country but I feel it is unfair to criticize clubs for the actions of some members unless it is the club itself that is contradicting its own "Mission Statement". Then it is up to the individual to decide if that club is right for them and whether they would want to be associated with it. I think it comes down to what Len has already stated, personal ethinics. There is always going to be those "bad" apples in any group. Sometimes you just gotta take the good with the bad.
Now I have a question for you. How does a club "police" its members that are not good representatives for the club?

 

[JennM]

My question remains: what makes it "bad" to buy a wild colony? That seems to be the sticking point of it all.

IMO a member is more of a "bad apple" if he/she doesn't share what he/she has learned about the hobby - good and bad. We've all made mistakes, and we've all had successes. If you can prevent somebody from making the same mistake you made, or share a positive experience, IMO the mandate of "education" is met.

Who arbitrarily decided that "wild is bad?"

I think we are discussing two totally different issues.

Syris, I'm like you. I founded the club so I could meet new people who had a common interest, and who could exchange information. I had just moved to this area and wanted more than anything, to socialize with people who had the same interests as I do. I figured it was a good way to advance my own personal knowledge base, and share what I'd learned with others. For the last 3 years, I've done just that. So have many of the other members.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Jenn,

I think you are jumping the gun with the 'wild bad' discussion. I don't think anyone here is putting a 'good/bad' label on anything. It is more about saying you are supporting one thing at one end of the spectrum, but in reality you are supporting its opposite just as much. The good/bad discussion is up to the individual.

It seems odd to me to publicly make a show of supporting a 'propagated only' tank as an educational example of what reefing could be, but at the same time snapping up great quanties of wild caught animals. It makes the 'propagated only' idea look hollow, when the idea behind to tank at the LFS is to show people that a 'propagated only' tank is not only possible, but preferred.

 

[Anonymous]

Part of this seems to stem from the idea that a club must exist purely for some ethical platform when the real idea behind the majority of the clubs out there is purely social with some economics thrown in.

People don't join a club because of some propagation agenda or education. They join because they want to talk with fellow hobbiests, have a few beers and talk shop. The other stuff is window dressing IMO and if some positive aspects occure then GREAT! but it's just as great to be able to have a few beers with friends and check out each other's tanks.

 

[JennM]

What Tom said

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with Tom.
Good post!

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Part of this seems to stem from the idea that a club must exist purely for some ethical platform when the real idea behind the majority of the clubs out there is purely social with some economics thrown in.

I think that is a side step. A club supporting propagation says nothing about the club existing purely for anything. You can easily have a club that supports propogation, but really exists for all the reasons you state.

What do you think about a club supporting propagation efforts, and using wild caught coral door prizes to raise funds for those propagation efforts?

 

[Anonymous]

How often does that really happen? Most of the time the prize is some particularly nice frag from someone - but if it is wild, is it hypocritical? I guess that depends on the level of the clubs propagation tenancity. Are the Reef Nazi's? Or just mildly encouraging props? Most would fall into the later category because all corals were wild at some time and lets face it sustainable harvest especially of fast growers has little real impact. So unless they are nazi's about the propagation subject I think it's a non-issue.

I'll stick with my statement that most are purely social and economically driven and the rest of the stuff doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things because just like the knowledgable LFS - you can't reach everybody - most hobbyiests still shop at Petco.