How do you make a puffer fish puff?

[saltyzoo]

Righty, it really matters not. People have decided who is credible without actually finding out who is who and what is what. I could throw out 3 PhD's and 20 years experience in the field (which I don't have, just for the record. Don't want anybody accusing me of misleading them) and you still would disagree with me, would you not? I just found SeaMaidens comments ironic. Nothing more.

If there happens to be nothing there to infect at the time, then it's verification of absolutely nothing. It's a crap shoot. Not science. People with HIV live years without getting fatally infected. That is not proof they are healthy, only proof that they have been lucky to that point and that other factors have prevented the infection from occuring.

Saltyzoo, I think you have severely underestimated the intellectual capacity of members of this particular bulletin board.

I suppose this isn't meant as an attack either. :roll: Ah, so warm and friendly. I do feel the love. Do I smell another strawman here? Why yes, I do. I wonder what other reasons can you find to attempt to descredit me other than actual evidence that I'm wrong?

 

[Len]

bump (it's now 2 posts back, and I figured out why)

 

[Len]

salty,

I respectfully ask that you don't try to look for a "fight" when none exists. We're really just trying to understand your position better.

 

[saltyzoo]

I respectfully ask how:

Saltyzoo, I think you have severely underestimated the intellectual capacity of members of this particular bulletin board.

helps anyone understand each other better?

 

[Anonymous]

Righty, it really matters not. People have decided who is credible without actually finding out who is who and what is what. I could throw out 3 PhD's and 20 years experience in the field (which I don't have, just for the record. Don't want anybody accusing me of misleading them) and you still would disagree with me, would you not? I just found SeaMaidens comments ironic. Nothing more.

Then why did you bring it up?
Thus far you have given us no reason to believe that you are just another hobbiest like most of us. If you have some credits that you think are important, you should tell us what they are instead of saying something akin to 'I know something you don't know, but I won't tell you'.

Saltyzoo, I think you have severely underestimated the intellectual capacity of members of this particular bulletin board.

I suppose this isn't meant as an attack either.

I don't know for sure, because I did not write it, but I would guess that due to your recent defensiveness in this thread that perhaps it is a dig.

:roll: Ah, so warm and friendly. I do feel the love.

You get back what you put into the world :wink:

Do I smell another strawman here? Why yes, I do. I wonder what other reasons can you find to attempt to descredit me other than actual evidence that I'm wrong?

You are off and running again. I am not John or SM and they are not me and I am unclear as to why you would think we are banding together to try to discredit you. I certainly am not. I don't even know who you are.
As I have explained at length, I am interested in what you have to say, but you often seem to find reasons not to say it, and only hint that you could say something. I think if you just said it, instead of saying that you could say it, we could get on with the discussion.
Why are you so paranoid and thinking people are out to get you? Most of the discussion in this thread has been about ideas, but you seem to think there is more to it. What gives?

 

[Anonymous]

How about someone whose experience includes that at a public aquarium?

LOL I think that's a great idea. Wait a minute I know someone that has such experience. Maybe you ought to find out the experience of the person you are arguing with before discounting what they say.... The irony is killing me.

Oh, and I'm not ignoring you. I responded to your "they like it" comment pages and pages ago. How about this? A dog will run across a busy street to get some attention. Does that mean you should encourage dogs to run across busy streets?

Wow, what an incredibly condescending tone. I don't think I really deserved that, either. :| I'm sorry I missed your response to me, although, if you're going to get it, let's get it right. I didn't say "they like it", I asked quite specifically about those animals that do like it. They do exist, you know...then again it could be that you have never had experience with an aquatic vertebrate that enjoyed interaction with you...(only just realized that). I'll ask you again, do you read the posts that you're responding to? I know that sometimes I "skim", and may miss something, maybe this happened with you, eh?

Let me introduce you to someone else who has that p.a. experience (along with experience in other arenas). Hello, you'll find my real name in the RDOTF member listing. If you really do your footwork then you'll also learn more about who I am. You never know, we actually could have "mutual friends".

Not that it makes much difference who I am (nor should it), because if I were a noob, you would have greatly discouraged me from participating in any discussion with you. And what a newbie thinks or comes away believing has been part and parcel of much of your argument as well. Fortunately for us both, I have good, strong stones and am not easily dissuaded OR intimidated by the condescension of others.

I find your dog analogy to be somewhat lacking though, I've never known a dog to run across the street to get attention, so this leaves me a little perplexed as to your real point. Are you telling me that, should such an animal seek my attention that I should not give in and have any interaction that involves handling or touching? If so, I am of the opinion that the only real reason you would put this forth would be to ensure that you say nothing that does not support your latest argument. Surely you couldn't be telling me that I am actually causing harm to the fish that goes on to live a healthy life, and that my experience means nothing, could you??

 

[Len]

I respectfully ask how:

Saltyzoo, I think you have severely underestimated the intellectual capacity of members of this particular bulletin board.

helps anyone understand each other better?

I may not have phrased it the same way, but I agree with John's basic premise: that you talk very condescendingly to the rest of us and that is probably why people are so contentious with you. Brian, Habib, et. al. all conduct themselves with the decorum becoming of a civil discourse. All I'm asking you demonstrate more respect to your peers. Sorry if this came off as an unwarranted attack on you, but you did ask the question.

 

[Micah00]

I've read the first couple pages and the last 3 so I don't really know if what I state has been said or if it even matters(seems like a dog and cat fight to me). But I seen this one grew faster than the Eco thread.

First let me state, I currently have 5 tanks set up (55 gal reef, 40 gal reef, 29 FOWLR, 135 gal FOWLR, and a 10 gal FW), which I own 20+ fish. On the list are 2 puffers. The puffers are my favorite fish. When I walk to their tanks they are the first to the glass and the last one to leave. Sure they probally just think food, but to me I respet that and find these fish more enjoyable. Within 5 days both would eat from my hand. They really seem more like dogs to me, IMO they make great pet fish. Have I ever forced them to puff, no but I have seen them do it on their own. And besides this thread hadn't been started yet.

The puffing up is a reaction to being spooked or as a defense. Have you ever hidden behind a wall or door and jumped out and scared someone (sibbling, spouse, parent, ....) or been scared by someone ? Did you want harm to come to this person? What happens if you're scared ? Your heart beats fast, get an adrenaline rush, may curse or have to sit down. But you are usually just fine, there is a 2 in 1,000,000 chance you might die of a heart attack or if your a puffer you might explode. But some people enjoy this rush and do things such as jumping out of planes. You never know your puffer might be thinking " I hope he pinches me today".

If you really want to argue and be mad focus that on these b@#$%!ds who insert ballons into puffers, blow them up then clear coat them, and sell them as decorations or lamps. Or people who harvest corals and spray paint them to sell to tourist.

 

[Zepplin]

Well, this conversation sure has made progress. I'm reading a lot of talk about "experts" and who is and who isn't. As I recall, Eric Borneman did comment earlier in this thread and he was disturbed by the idea of forcing the puffing reaction. If Eric isn't an expert through both scholarship and experience, who is exactly?

I am still upset by this thread, I view it as a blow to good husbandry.

-Meg

 

[billybob]

Well, this conversation sure has made a lot of progress. I'm reading a lot of talk about "experts" and who is and who isn't. As I recall, Eric Borneman did comment earlier in this thread and he was disturbed by the idea of forcing the puffing reaction. If Eric isn't an expert through both scholarship and experience, who is exactly?

-Meg

Borneman is a coral expert, not a fish expert. Would you ask a plumber to work on your fuse box?

 

[Zepplin]

Billybob-I've solicited Eric's advice concerning fish before. I can assure you he is pretty well versed in fish as well. Although I wouldn't trust him with my fuse box, I'd be willing to bet he is as educated about these animals as anyone on this thread.

-Meg

 

[saltyzoo]

Len,

The point that I was trying to make is that the fact that it was said that I "...have severely underestimated the intellectual capacity of members of this particular bulletin board." is nothing more than another attempt to distract from the evidence that is on the table. It does not show that my evidence is incorrect. It does not lead people to better understanding of fish husbandry.

The issue is not that I feel attacked as I've said. Personally I could care less.

The only reason I bring it up is to cast light on the fact that it is a debating technique to avoid actually discussing the issue at hand. You can discuss my "obtuse"ness further, come up with other reasons why I'm such a bad person, or you can discuss the fact that I presented evidence that handling removes the slime coat from a fish, which can directly result in infection. Up until now it seems clear which options you prefer, and it is your right to continually bring the conversation back to that. I will continue to bring the conversation back to the fact that You should never handle your fish unless absolutely necessary. It is stressful and has been shown to cause harm to the fish in more than one way.

 

[esmithiii]

Billybob-I've solicited Eric's advice concerning fish before. I can assure you he is pretty well versed in fish as well. Although I wouldn't trust him with my fuse box, I'd be willing to bet he is as educated about these animals as anyone on this thread.

-Meg

Meg-

I would be willing to bet that he has not personally handled a tenth of the pufferfish that some who have replied on this thread have. He made no claim to have any personal experience with these fish, just that he was morally outraged, and that I belong in jail for having made my comments. I have read his books, and respect his knowledge about many things, but I do not deify him as many (yourself included) do. Just because you write a book does not make you infalible.

The fact that his post did not include fact, data or anything other than outrage did not change my mind in the least. He gave information (about releasing tetrodotoxin) that was intended to frighten others into accepting his position but was, in my opinion, not factual. (There is ample evidence that the pufferfish itself does not create the toxin, which is fatal if ingested, but rather that a bacteria is responsible.) I could find no evidence that puffers release the toxin when stressed.

Again, I respect Borneman for his contributions to the hobby, and to my own tanks (I use his books frequently, and find them better organized, more informative and useful than any others I have read.) I simply do not think that his opinion on this particular matter outweighs others who have handled many of the fish on numerous occasions. The assertion that we are to accept his opinion over logic, the facts presented and the contradicting experience of many other "experts" is ludicrous and incensing.

Ernie

 

[Anonymous]

The issue is not that I feel attacked as I've said. Personally I could care less.

I have a hard time believing that, as you keep responding and bringing up the idea that you feel attacked. You do it again in the next paragraph.

The only reason I bring it up is to cast light on the fact that it is a debating technique to avoid actually discussing the issue at hand.

That seems very odd coming from you, as you seem to avoid anything connected with the issue that does not support your position, or what you deem worthy of being included in this thread. :wink: And actually, the use of 'obtuse' was a debating technique used to try to engage you in discussion, not to distract form the discussion.

You can discuss my "obtuse"ness further, come up with other reasons why I'm such a bad person, or you can discuss the fact that I presented evidence that handling removes the slime coat from a fish, which can directly result in infection.

I have discussed the evidence you have presented several times, and you have ignored my points. I am at a loss as to how to engage you in meaningful discussion, and at a loss as to how you can possibly infer that your points haven't been discussed.

Up until now it seems clear which options you prefer, and it is your right to continually bring the conversation back to that. I will continue to bring the conversation back to the fact that You should never handle your fish unless absolutely necessary. It is stressful and has been shown to cause harm to the fish in more than one way.

And again, I beg you define 'absolutely necessary', to discuss the idea that stress doesn't always cause harm to the fish, and discuss the differences between keeping fish as pets and farming them.


:mrgreen:

 

[saltyzoo]

Absolutely necessary is a subjective term. I leave it to you to define for yourselves.

For me personally, making a puffer puff is about as far away from "absolutely necessary" as it gets.

 

[Marrowbone]

Petting your dog or cat is not "absolutely necessary" either, but dogs, cats and people all seem to benefit from it.

 

[Anonymous]

Absolutely necessary is a subjective term. I leave it to you to define for yourselves.

For me personally, making a puffer puff is about as far away from "absolutely necessary" as it gets.

So you believe puffing a puffer is a personal choice?

Do you have any comment on the other issues I brought up in regards to the article you linked?
'the idea that stress doesn't always cause harm to the fish, and the differences between keeping fish as pets and farming them. '

 

[saltyzoo]

You win. I give up. I really just haven't the foggiest idea how to argue with this logic.

Actually, I do know how to argue with this logic. I've been doing so most of the thread. The truth is I don't know how to convince you that your thinking is fallacious. I've tried a dozen different ways and none have struck a chord. I think most people can see the logic in what I am saying. Handling a fish is shown to be harmful, so don't do it for such a frivolous purpose as seeing it puff up.

The facts are the facts. Choose to ignore them at your own risks. I cannot tell you what to do with your own fish, but the choice is plain as day to me.

 

[Anonymous]

You win. I give up.

As I have said many times in this thread, I am not trying to 'win', I am trying to understand your position and how you cam to it.

I really just haven't the foggiest idea how to argue with this logic.

You could just answer the questions instead of trying to argue.

:mrgreen:

 

[Bone]

So it seems that the majority is leaning toward giving the ok to pinch the puffer. And I must say the puffer-pinching-proponents present a professedly potent proposition 8) . There are some skilled critical thinkers on this thread but if we reduce the argument to the absurd then what is your answer? Is it better to pinch your puffer if you wish to see it puff or is it better to just wait for the fish to do it on its own? Which is it, to pinch or not to pinch?