How do you make a puffer fish puff?

[Marrowbone]

This word that keeps getting used over and over: handling

If we are trying to use it in an effective scientific debate, it is never ever defined or quantified in any capacity in the article that was quoted
on page 15- It is under the category "procedural stressors", which, I would guess in this context of a fish hatchery (or the aquarium trade), more often refers to capturing and holding a fish in order to move it or to do something like treat it.

Nothing is mentioned about contact of any kind being inherently harmful. Surely the aquatic life in "hands on" exhibits are not subjected to unreasonable stress.


That's the other word: stress

Stress is a part of nature. In large amounts it can cause harm, but in smaller amounts it can be a stimulant, like exercise. What would happen to us if our immune systems weren't constantly exercised by the stress of lesser infections? A cold could be deadly. If you grow tall plants indoors where the air is still, and then take them outside, they can be blown over by a slight breeze. Too much stress is bad, right? Well, what about too little?


Is it also not unreasonable to believe that these puffers are comfortable in using their own very effective natural defenses? -and that in most cases they use it pre-emptively and as a show to avoid being attacked? I don't think it falls into the category also mentioned in the article: Alarm reaction ("fight or flight" response).

Does anyone know if puffers have natural predators in the wild that eat them? If an animal has no natural predators, they become fearless, kind of like the deer that live among the residential neighborhoods around here.

 

[Anonymous]

It'll do it on its own. Just sit tight, or put a cam on it so you don't miss it. In my opinion, it's better to wait. Howzat?

 

[Bone]

So Seamaiden is not a puffer-pinching-proponent. Anyone else?

I think it would be inacurate if ppl left this thread saying that the majority of members on RDO recommend eliciting the puff response from their puffer. I could be wrong though.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, that was in response to Bone's question. :roll: Good lord, TIMING!

 

[Anonymous]

I must not have had enough coffee yet this morning... :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

I think it is 'better' to wait for the puffer to puff itself rather than to pinch it to make it puff.

 

[Habib (Salifert)]

I think it is 'better' to wait for the puffer to puff itself rather than to pinch it to make it puff.

 

[Anonymous]

Where in Holland?

 

[Habib (Salifert)]

Where in Holland?

In Duiven (near Arnhem) about 70 miles east of Amsterdam.

 

[Expos Forever]

Question for John and/or Steve:

If the US were to ban imports of reef fish for the hobby. In your opinion, what would happen? I suppose I am referring to specifically Phillipines/Indonesia. How much is puffer worth to a collector? as a fish for the hobby? as a food fish? as a curio? If the the hobby was banned would less puffers be collected?

Not trying to make point, just want to know the truth.

 

[John_Brandt]

Question for John and/or Steve:

If the US were to ban imports of reef fish for the hobby. In your opinion, what would happen? I suppose I am referring to specifically Phillipines/Indonesia. How much is puffer worth to a collector? as a fish for the hobby? as a food fish? as a curio? If the the hobby was banned would less puffers be collected?

Not trying to make point, just want to know the truth.

Erik,

There are some vagueries to your questions.

If the USA banned the importation of fishes from the Philippines and Indonesia the effects would be catastrophic. At least 60% of all marine fish imported into the USA are from these regions combined. It could be as high as 75%. Of course many of the well-known species come from this region specifically. So it wouldn't just be that there are 60% fewer fish at retail; there would be great numbers of species that would be entirely missing from the trade. The Indo-Pacific (specifically Indonesia/Philippines) represents the center of marine biodiversity worldwide.

With reference to puffers...most of the Dogface and Toby puffers come from this region. A good number of Porcupine puffers come from this area, but since they are circumtropical the USA could easily get all of its supply from the Tropical Atlantic, Caribbean and even the Indian Ocean.

I am uncertain of the quantitative representation of Asian demand on pufferfishes for food, curios and medicinal use - but it may be significant. American kitsch no longer covets dried, inflated pufferfishes like they did decades ago.

Southeast Asian fishers do not get much for a puffer when sold to the marine ornamental trade. The common species are...well...common. The rare and high-priced puffers (Mappa, Stellatus, Gold Guineafowl, etc.) are uncommon throughout their range.

The American hobbyist demand for puffers is not particularly high. They don't lend themselves to every kind of aquarium set-up, and certainly reef aquarists have little interest in them. But there is something about a Dogface or Porcupine puffer's face and demeanor that will hook you on them for life. They are sweet fish, and in spite of my misunderstood puffer-pinching reputation here, I would never hurt one. And I never have.

 

[clarionreef]

Erik,
If the Philippines and Indo get shut down, puffers will be least of anyones concerns. They mean virtually nothing compared to that eventuality.
Dogface puffers and sharpnoses are cheap, low income fishes and would hardly be missed in the catastrophe of trade collapse.
Tropical fish are already seen as an alternative livelihood in many areas. This is because the food fish industry is generally poor and worsening everywhere. Thank goodness for tropicals believe fish collectors and their families.
Porcupine puffers quantities are now largely coming out of Florida, Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
If only there was a fraction of interest for net training and industry reform! Would everyone have a look at the 'Industry behind the hobbys' recent postings and join in improving the trade rather than just amusing yourselves with it? You don't have to go overboard, but give it some play.
We need barrier netting for upcoming training programs in the Philippines and market support for netcaught fishes in general.
We have taken so much from the sea...lets moderate its impact and make it sustainable.
The puffer questions are the very least of our problems...dead last in fact.
Steve Robinson
AMDA president

 

[L and L]

So it seems that the majority is leaning toward giving the ok to pinch the puffer. And I must say the puffer-pinching-proponents present a professedly potent proposition 8) . There are some skilled critical thinkers on this thread but if we reduce the argument to the absurd then what is your answer? Is it better to pinch your puffer if you wish to see it puff or is it better to just wait for the fish to do it on its own? Which is it, to pinch or not to pinch?

Very well written Bone.

I'm no puffer pinching pushing person.

Here's my puffer.

 

[Reef_Monkey]

8O WOW!! That's all! BTW I'm still here. Learning more and more!!

 

[Expos Forever]

Thank you John and Steve for your prompt replies.

My question was worded poorly. The ethics of reefkeeping have been questioned in this thread. A puffer was used as an example. I should have asked: What will happen to people of P/I and the reefs (and it's inhabitants) should the hobby be banned?

Steve

Speaking for myself, I do try to read every post in the Industry forum and encourage everyone else to do so. I honestly do not post as I have no first hand experience in the "industry" and would only have the average hobbiest's point of view. For now, at least, I will continue to read and learn. Thanks you for the invite to the forum. I was very glad to see you posting to this thread. Some of you industry types are as bad as the Sump dwellers for never posting to General Reef Discussion. :wink: It is truely amazing to see people (often competitors) discussing business so openly. Collectors, Wholesalers, Retailers, E-tailers and the hobbiest are all represented. IMO it is one of the things that make RDO special. I know you find a lot of this puffer talk silly, but I'm convinced many have learned much here.

 

[dizzy]

I know you find a lot of this puffer talk silly, but I'm convinced many have learned much here.

StE,
Not only do I find this thread silly, I don't even know what anyone has learned from it. I handle a lot of fish and I mean handle. IMO nets do far more damage to fish than the human hand. I always try to catch angels and tangs by hand, so they won't end up getting stuck in the net. I handle puffers, clowns, triggers, damsels, groupers, angels, tangs, butterflies, cat sharks, and just about everything else. I do not handle lionfish, foxface, or eels. I've been bit, sliced, poked, and punctured by more fish than I care to remember. I've accidentally pulled large queen triggers out of my tanks hanging on to the end of my index finger. I've been bitten by eels, puffers, triggers, clowns, etc. I've been stuck by foxfaces, and almost every angel you can think of. I've been sliced by tangs when I didn't get just the right grip. (It is a bit of an art form)

One of the worse bites I ever got was from a fanged blenny from Costa Rico or somewhere. I was taking him out of the bucket to release in a tank, I was holding him lightly in the palm of my hand, and he rolled over sunk his fangs in my pointing finger to the bone. I was amazed at how hard that sucker bit me. The truth is in 18 of "handling" marinelife I think the only one that got injured was me. If your hand is wet it doesn't hurt the fish, it is that simple. Some of you people really are silly and oh BTW Steve is right about having your priorities all screwed up.
Mitch
PS
Have you ever seen Steve Irwin handle the sea snakes on Animals Planet?

 

[Anonymous]

Mitch, that was a Panamic Fanged Blenny from the sea of Cortez I belive. Ditto, the worst bite from a fish I've ever received. Those little buggers are insane aglae grazers, but man those razor sharp teeth suck and they'll go out of their way to nail you. I've had them skip over cubes to come after me when I clean the algae, compitition I guess.

 

[saltyzoo]

IMO nets do far more damage to fish than the human hand. I always try to catch angels and tangs by hand, so they won't end up getting stuck in the net.

I agree that nets are damaging. I don't even own a net. Plastic containers work as excellent substitutes for nets and hands.

It is best for the health of the fish and the handler not to directly handle the fish.

 

[Expos Forever]

Dizzy

Are you saying that as a store owner talk of collection, handling, cyanide, ethics, handling, the industry, husbandry, etc... is useless? I won't make any assumptions as to why you feel this way. I'm not even sure why you're talking about nets? If I mentioned net caught it was obviously as the only alternative I know of to cyanide use. I guess in regards to handling puffers? IMO there is more to this discussion than just puffers. People complain that the hobbiest always want the cheapest fish without regards to collection issues, sustainability, etc... I've met people that actually argued with me that cyanide use disappeared years ago.

If one person reading this thread starts thinking about any of these issues, is it not worthwhile? Are Steve and Mary wasting their time providing ethically collected specimens?
My new'ish 110 has been stocked with only propagated corals. My inspiration to do so was reading here and elsewhere. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but we have to start somewhere don't we? I haven't been in the business for 18 years so I still have the luxury of thinking there is something we can do. Am I wrong?

IMO the person whe decries puffer pinching is likely to be the person who will care most about the reef and it's inhabitants once they are informed of the reality of our hobby. Steve (and you) are right, our priorities are screwed up. Maybe this thread can push at least one person to get their priorites straight.

 

[Anonymous]

Erik, I believe Mitch was speaking directly to this particular thread. And I believe that his frustration stems from the fact that the same statements have been made (can we say ad nauseum, Mitch?), often in a rather..mm..well..the only word I can really come up with is obtuse (truly, it's the most polite word I can think of..I'll get my thesaurus just to be sure...nope, obtuse really is the most polite word). I also believe that working so long in the industry may have made his brain like bacalao.. (J/K)