How do you make a puffer fish puff?

[esmithiii]

Chill out, zealot, it was a masturbation joke, get it?

Ditto. Its a fish, man, not a human being. People kill and eat similar species in Asia all the time, but I don't hear you screaming about that. In Asia they throw live octopus on the grill, which are far more intellegent than fish. Do you eat meat? Chicken? Dairy products? Ever been to a slaughter house or Dairy? Do you get up in arms about that? Are you a Vegan who chides his meat-eating friends as bad as you chided us for mentioning lightly pinching a fish? If not, then I suggest you lighten up and look up the definition of hypocrite.

I personally hunt, fish and have kept and slaughtered livestock for food. If you are going to get upset about something, you should probably jump my case for those things too: next to shooting a deer or slaughtering a steer getting upset about someone pinching a pet puffer seems kind of silly to me.

I personally don't own a puffer (fish that is) so I don't have one to pinch, but if I did own one I might or might not pinch one. To me it seems like a lot of work to catch the bugger and then pinch him. I certainly wouldn't get worked up one way or another about it though.

Ernie

 

[Anonymous]

My dogface puffer puffs every once in a while when the zebra moray in the same tank chases him. The zebra senses movement, and smells food in the water. He chases all the fish halfheartedly, but he would never eat them even if he could catch them. The other fish simply swim away, but the puffer just sits there and puffs up halfway. I have seen puffers puff with air, and it's not a pretty sight when they try to get it out. Sometimes they will just float at the top of the tank because they can't get the air out. I might try it once just to see it happen for educational purposes. If you've never seen it before, it's interesting. I certainly wouldn't try it the first month he's in your tank. Let him settle in and become comfortable without any unnecessary stressors.

 

[klingsa]

I would just like to say that this has been quite an amusing thread to read! And, since no one has said it yet,

I get the joke! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good one, guys.

Sara

 

[Expos Forever]

From Merriam-Webster

One entry found for hypocrite.


Main Entry: hyp·o·crite
Pronunciation: 'hi-p&-"krit
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ypocrite, from Old French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritEs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date: 13th century

: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion

Can someone please explain how eating meat for food to survive and using a fish as a toy are the same thing?

People can justify any behaviour by saying it's just a fish. Pull wings off flies? Why not. It's just a fly. Let's shoot this cow in the udder with a BB gun, we're going to eat it later anyways.

I consider all my tank's inhabitants amongst the most beautiful creatures on earth (except bristle worms :wink: ), while they are in my care I will not knowingly stress or harm them in any way. I am aware of the hobby's effect on the reef. That's why hobbiests must be conscientious. If we as a hobby stop buying reef fish the poor fishermen of Indonesia-Phillipines who are presently using cyanide will likely turn to these fish as food for a source of income (still with cyanide). Not helping the reef much is it? We must encourage net caught suppliers/vendors.

Sushi: Just the thought of live ocutpus on a grill makes me sick. the harvesting of the oceans for food (yes, particularly in Asia) is causing more damage to the oceans as a whole then the hobby ever could.
Hunting: Pass, thanks.

Hands off your puffers, for crying out loud! Buy a balloon and play with that instead.

 

[Anonymous]

I concur Save the expos. What's up with the whole Puffer fettish? were you guys tormentented/molested by clowns in your childhood. Animals are animals and this includes us. Now by the same reckoning you guys would like someone to hold a gun to your head and watch the feces fall from your britches. After all it's what you were designed to do right. It shouldn't harm you in anyway right, just all in good fun eh. Just hope you don't have a health problem, and you'll be fine. Puffers have this defense for one reason a defense from being eaten and killed just like humans and mammals alike defecate on themselves. How about animals that drop their tails for self defense, and or release precious venom ect... the list goes on and on. "It" is a self preservation method designed to be used in only the most extreme circumstances. You guys sound like a bunche of kids at my store walking around with no parents to slap your hands, grow up and stop acting like children.

 

[esmithiii]

Can someone please explain how eating meat for food to survive and using a fish as a toy are the same thing?

They are not the same. Let me clarify my point.

first, no one with the resources to maintain a reef tank has to eat meat to survive. Second, animals raised for food suffer much more than a puffer fish that gets pinched a couple of times a year. Third, for every fish that you buy, 50 die in transit on the deck of the collection boats, on a hot runway, due to poor handling or in many other ways that cause them to suffer more than a puffer who gets gently pinched a couple times a year. Fourth, your definition of hypocrite is correct, and appropriate for the situation. Anyone who takes the moral high ground in this hobby and criticizes someone about "mistreating" their animals falls under that definition.

I try to take the best care of my animals that I can, mostly because of how expensive they are, but also because I don't want this hobby to come under unwanted criticism. I have a hard time seeing myself as morally superior to anyone on this issue, though because all of us in this hobby are responsible for our fair share of animals' suffering whether we like to admit it or not.

Ernie

 

[esmithiii]

I concur Save the expos. What's up with the whole Puffer fettish? were you guys tormentented/molested by clowns in your childhood. Animals are animals and this includes us. Now by the same reckoning you guys would like someone to hold a gun to your head and watch the feces fall from your britches. After all it's what you were designed to do right. It shouldn't harm you in anyway right, just all in good fun eh. Just hope you don't have a health problem, and you'll be fine. Puffers have this defense for one reason a defense from being eaten and killed just like humans and mammals alike defecate on themselves. How about animals that drop their tails for self defense, and or release precious venom ect... the list goes on and on. "It" is a self preservation method designed to be used in only the most extreme circumstances. You guys sound like a bunche of kids at my store walking around with no parents to slap your hands, grow up and stop acting like children.

Comparing a chemical response in an animal with a brain the size of a pea to the feelings and responses of a thinking, sentient being is beyond ridiculous. If you really think that it is the same then you should stop playing God with your fish, become a vegetarian, sell your car, have your electricity cut off, get a vasectomy and make sure you never step on any insects. Is pinching a puffer for your personal pleasure really any worse than eating a nice, juicy piece of prime rib? Anyone that has the money to have a fish tank does not need to eat meat to survive- you eat it because it gives you pleasure. Eating meat is the direct cause of considerable suffering for livestock. I don't see how you could make a distinction.

Ernie

 

[Expos Forever]

I will agree it is technically possible (though not necessarily advisable) to live without eating meat. Is is possible to live without using a fish as a toy? Again, using your logic justifies all kinds of cruelty. The distinction is clear: doing this to your puffer will elicit a stress response. Is it cool to spin my dog round and round till he pukes because it looks funny? Why not, the dog will be fine.


Are you saying there is no moral difference between someone who does their utmost to propoerly care for their creatures, purchasing conscientiously is on equal moral ground to someone who through indifference or plain willfulness mistreats their animals?

 

[Anonymous]

Ya know, they DO puff up in nature. And I'm guessing they have to do it more than a couple times a year. I don't see the big deal, as long as you're not constantly tormenting the animal. The very few times it happens in my tank, without any intervention on my part, the puffer doesn't seem to get very stressed at all. He continues to eat directly afterwards and swim around like normal. I think it's an incredible thing to watch. Do you guys object to making cobras display their hood?

I don't see it as using the fish as a toy, rather as a learning experience. If people have never even seen a puffer except on TV, witnessing this amazing adaptation can only make someone more aware and appreciative of life in the ocean.

 

[Anonymous]

Watching a dog puke is not an example of a unique adaptation. I think it's more analogous to the lizard or cobra examples.

Have you ever passed your hand over a giant clam, to show how it closes when a shadow passes over? This is a response elicited by stress, but I think everyone would agree it's not cruel. So where do you draw the line?

 

[dizzy]

Grab a tiny bit of their skin between your thumb and index finger. Gently pinch this skin and tug a little bit at the same time. Works every time.
:wink:

John I got to admit this does sound a little like confessions from a master baiter. Did you work at a bait shop before you got into tropicals? :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

esmithiii wrote

Comparing a chemical response in an animal with a brain the size of a pea to the feelings and responses of a thinking, sentient being is beyond ridiculous.

Now tell me why it has to do with feelings and responses of a "thinking, sentient being" again. If an animal let say a deer, dog or even a mouse is being killed, threatened it will deficate. Just as the puffer will use it's defense, vipers will inject (precious) venom, geckos drop their tails, and bees sting (which in some species causes death) ect...

Why should a "thinking, sentient being" feel that it is necessary to invoke a sympathetic nerve response of an animal using its cerebellum and endochrine system. To stress the animal for mere pleasure is a direct corellation to torture for pleasure. Wouldn't it be easier to get a magnifying glass and find an ant hill. As for your reference to meat I don't go and sever the hooves off of a cow to watch it scream in agany before it is served on my plate. Also cows are bred for the food industry and are in no short demand as for puffer which are harvested from the reefs. We eat meat because it is a readily available food source high in protein, and which is our natural diet (yes we do have canines for a reason). It is a inborn genetic propensity to enjoy the dominance of other species in our environment this qoute directly from Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin. Darwin theorized that primates did this to lessen competition from rival animals for food. Now unless you are threatened by a puffer you should not enjoy making them invoke their natural defense mechanism. Now if your into aquarium for mere torture of your fellow creatures I suggest an easier path, simply talk to other people.

 

[esmithiii]

I will agree it is technically possible (though not necessarily advisable) to live without eating meat. Is is possible to live without using a fish as a toy? Again, using your logic justifies all kinds of cruelty. The distinction is clear: doing this to your puffer will elicit a stress response. Is it cool to spin my dog round and round till he pukes because it looks funny? Why not, the dog will be fine.

Personally I would rather see a guy have a dog, take it on walks, feed it properly, give it attention, affection, see to its other needs and occasionally spin it around by its tail till it pukes rather than see someone who never "mistreats" his dog yet keeps it chained up all day.

Are you saying there is no moral difference between someone who does their utmost to propoerly care for their creatures, purchasing conscientiously is on equal moral ground to someone who through indifference or plain willfulness mistreats their animals?

I am saying that there is little enough difference that the one who makes the effort to properly care for his animals should not feel comfortable with making judgements about how the person who "through indifference or plain willfulness mistreats their animals." The only difference possibly is in the motive of the two individuals. And unless you are are telepathic, it is impossible for you to know. The reality is that the "conscientious" reefkeeper is, for all intents and purposes, causing as much pain and suffering as the guy who willingly or through indifference mistreats his animals. Any fish we buy means that many more will die. None of us can claim otherwise, not even those who buy "captive bred fish." I have been to the hatcheries, and know the mortality rates of their fish in transit (albeit dramatically less than those of wild collected fish).

The bottom line is that I find comparisons of animals to humans in this regard offensive. If you truly believe that animal suffering is of the same importance as human suffering then you should really follow through with your convictions and give up animal products altogether. There is a huge contradiction here.

It is popular here and on other boards for people to get "up in arms" about the craziest things. It has become PC to be the protector of animals, yet those that are so willing to berate someone for mistreatment of animals convienently ignore their own staggaring contributions to animal suffering.

I am not saying that we shouldn't mention that certain things can deteriorate the health of a specimin, or that we stop advocating proper husbandry techniques, but rather that the holier than thou attitude and the righteous indignation are quite hypocritical and incensing. If I want to feel guilty about animal suffering I will join PETA or some other fanatical group of misguided zealots. I come to this board to get advice, occasionally give advice (and sometimes simply for a good debate ) not to get chided for mistreating my fish by someone who may have killed twenty or so fish in their tenure in this hobby.

Ernie

 

[esmithiii]

Now tell me why it has to do with feelings and responses of a "thinking, sentient being" again. If an animal let say a deer, dog or even a mouse is being killed, threatened it will deficate. Just as the puffer will use it's defense, vipers will inject (precious) venom, geckos drop their tails, and bees sting (which in some species causes death) ect...

I didn't explain myself well enough here. I was taking issue with the analogy which basically said "how would you like it if someone put a gun to your head and mad you defecate in your pants." Comparing the chemical response in an animal to the complex emotional trauma that a human would experience if faced with what you describe is not really fair nor accurate. In the simplest of terms, I do not equate pinching a fish with pointing a gun at another human being.

Why should a "thinking, sentient being" feel that it is necessary to invoke a sympathetic nerve response of an animal using its cerebellum and endochrine system. To stress the animal for mere pleasure is a direct corellation to torture for pleasure. Wouldn't it be easier to get a magnifying glass and find an ant hill. As for your reference to meat I don't go and sever the hooves off of a cow to watch it scream in agany before it is served on my plate. Also cows are bred for the food industry and are in no short demand as for puffer which are harvested from the reefs. We eat meat because it is a readily available food source high in protein, and which is our natural diet (yes we do have canines for a reason). It is a inborn genetic propensity to enjoy the dominance of other species in our environment this qoute directly from Origin of the Species by Charles Darwin. Darwin theorized that primates did this to lessen competition from rival animals for food. Now unless you are threatened by a puffer you should not enjoy making them invoke their natural defense mechanism.

I am an avid meat-eater, and love a good steak, so please don't misunderstand my point here either. Do you really believe that cattle, chickens, and pigs do not suffer when they are slaughtered? Are you saying that they do not feel pain? Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse? Have you seen how these animals are treated in transport? Or rather is your point that because cows are bred to be killed and eaten that their suffering is somehow less important that of the poor pufferfish who must endure occasional pinching? Or is your point that because there are fewer pufferfish in existance that their suffering is more important than those of cattle, chickens and pigs?

My point: If you criticize someone for causing suffering for their own pleasure (as in pinching a puffer) be honest with yourself about the other things you take pleasure in that also cause pain (like eating a nice, juicy steak or wearing a leather jacket). You seem to be judging the motive and again, unless you are a mindreader, you can't really be too sure about that, can you? It seems he takes pleasure in seeing the fish "puff up" (it is sold as a puffer fish, now isn't it? If you bought it you would probably expect it to live up to its name, wouldn't you?) not in seeing the fish in pain.

Now if your into aquarium for mere torture of your fellow creatures I suggest an easier path, simply talk to other people.

good one. When your argument is failing throw in a few jabs.

Ernie

 

[John_Brandt]

I'm stunned at the directions this thread has taken. I only mentioned the sure-fire way to get puffers to puff because I know it doesn't harm them.

I'm not a sadist nor into harming animals, that's why I say do it gently and do it right; if you must do it at all.

 

[Anonymous]

esmitiii wrote

I didn't explain myself well enough here. I was taking issue with the analogy which basically said "how would you like it if someone put a gun to your head and mad you defecate in your pants." Comparing the chemical response in an animal to the complex emotional trauma that a human would experience if faced with what you describe is not really fair nor accurate. In the simplest of terms, I do not equate pinching a fish with pointing a gun at another human being.

Okay, now just for some explanation. When someone puts a gun to your head you are "thinking" life or death right? Now when your harassing a fish it's "thinking" life or death right? In one case the animal "blows up" in the other the animal deficates on itself. Same thing different stimulation.

I am an avid meat-eater, and love a good steak, so please don't misunderstand my point here either. Do you really believe that cattle, chickens, and pigs do not suffer when they are slaughtered? Are you saying that they do not feel pain? Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse? Have you seen how these animals are treated in transport? Or rather is your point that because cows are bred to be killed and eaten that their suffering is somehow less important that of the poor pufferfish who must endure occasional pinching? Or is your point that because there are fewer pufferfish in existance that their suffering is more important than those of cattle, chickens and pigs?

My point: If you criticize someone for causing suffering for their own pleasure (as in pinching a puffer) be honest with yourself about the other things you take pleasure in that also cause pain (like eating a nice, juicy steak or wearing a leather jacket). You seem to be judging the motive and again, unless you are a mindreader, you can't really be too sure about that, can you? It seems he takes pleasure in seeing the fish "puff up" (it is sold as a puffer fish, now isn't it? If you bought it you would probably expect it to live up to its name, wouldn't you?) not in seeing the fish in pain.

I am not belittling the suffering of other animals by saying the suffering of the puffer is valued higher. Also I am not saying that just because suffering happens, and therefore why should you not torture or continue the suffering. Yes this world is full of people torturing animals :twisted: , but that does not mean because I eat meat I am torturing animals. I have also reared animals for slaughter and have gone fishing and hunting. Yet I see no need to mindlessly torture animals for my enjoyment. It also does not mean that because someone buys a puffer that more animals will die. These are possibiities resulting from incorrect handling, capture, and ect... Which will be overcome as long as people see the need to correct their procedures for collecting and shipping.

Now as for the ((it's sold as a puffer fish now isn't it? now if you boughtyou would probably expect it to live up to its name wouldn't you?) not in seeing the fish in pain.) We are not talking novice run of the mill kids here we are talking "advanced hobbyists". Now by the same reason you are going to take some file fish and do your nails?, or how about eating some chocoalate chip starfish, peppermint shrimp, or sea apples? There are plenty of common names out there that are merely for easy everyday identification. So the joe blow doesn't have to go and take latin to ask for or look at fish. As for the Jab it was all in good taste. :wink:

 

[dizzy]

Actually puffers probably need to puff up once in awhile to make sure the parts are still working correctly. I had an Arothron meleagris that used to puff up on occasion for no apparent reason. It would get bigger than a volleyball and was quite a sight to see. BTW did you know they put a ballon inside the porcupine puffers and blow them up so they can preserve (varnish) them like that for the curio trade.

 

[esmithiii]

Okay, now just for some explanation. When someone puts a gun to your head you are "thinking" life or death right? Now when your harassing a fish it's "thinking" life or death right? In one case the animal "blows up" in the other the animal deficates on itself. Same thing different stimulation.

My point is that the fish doesn't "think" at all. It is a fish, incapable of reasoning and thinking as we do. It simply responds with a set of bio-chemical reactions. Again, I don't think the analogy is a fair one. Humans think, reason, have memory in which we emotionally replay certain events. Fish do not have memory as we do. They can be conditioned to respond to certain stimuli, but ability to replay events in their minds is beyond their capability.

Yes this world is full of people torturing animals , but that does not mean because I eat meat I am torturing animals. I have also reared animals for slaughter and have gone fishing and hunting. Yet I see no need to mindlessly torture animals for my enjoyment. It also does not mean that because someone buys a puffer that more animals will die. These are possibiities resulting from incorrect handling, capture, and ect... Which will be overcome as long as people see the need to correct their procedures for collecting and shipping.

You are rationalizing here. True, it may not be the act of causing pain/suffering that gives you enjoyment when you eat a steak, but the reality is that you are in a sense trading the suffering and death of an animal for your own temporary enjoyment every time you take a bite. The pleasure that comes from seeing a puffer fish inflate does not come from the knowledge that the fish is stress/afraid but rather in seeing the response itself.

As for your attempt to wash your hands of the culpability in deaths associated with the collection, transport and distribution of these living things, you won't get off that easy. You and I both know that for every fish we buy, another 10 are caught, transported and 9 die in transit to replace the fish we bought. If you didn't buy the fish, it would probably not be backfilled. We pay the people hard cash that use the methods that you are blaming for the deaths. How can you wriggle out of any sense responsibility for that?

As for the jab, you saw my smiley face emoticon? It may have been an accurate statement after all. who knows?

Ernie

 

[Enzo]

Dude, Why do you guys all have to get worked up about pointless ****. Yah it is pretty fuqued up torturing an animal, but it's not like you're killing the animal. Puffers probably get a whole lot more stress in the wild. I have seen divers purposely puff up puffers and play catch with them. Now that is really fuqed up. If you get a puffer for the sole purpose of having it puff, you shouldn't have a puffer, just because you're pretty screwed up. I must admit, I got my puffer because I thought it would be very interesting to see it puff. I realize that I was pretty screwed up, but now that I've had my puffer for a while now, I have learned that it's not about having your puffer puff. But it's more about taking care of the fish. I get freaked out when my puffer puffs now. INstead of enjoying it, i'm totally scared that my puffer will die or something, even though puffers puff for no reason sometimes and I know that. The bottom line is, you can do whatever you fuqen want with your fish, wherever your perverted little mind wants to. You paid for it, it's probably likes your tank better than getting eaten as fugu at a japenese restauraunt. This is just my opinion

 

[esmithiii]