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You mean ceramic noodles? wedgies...ROFL
Bio-balls per tank size
- Thread starter Ryan7
- Start date
Rayn7,
If you just would have explained the problem in the first place you caould have avoided the 'bio-ball flaming'. As you found out here most do not use them anymore and are very against them. When comments were made saying to remove them because.... The posters were only trying to help, the un-necessary comments you made such as "I dont need a lesson in reefkeeping" IMO were uncalled for. This board is full of people just trying to help others, I think we all have learned somthing here, that is why we all keep comming back! All everyone wants to do is help others the best they can, if you would have just told us why you needed your answer things could have gone much more smoothly. Please note that when you told us why people were willing to advise more. I hope things work out for the tank you are working on.
JB
If you just would have explained the problem in the first place you caould have avoided the 'bio-ball flaming'. As you found out here most do not use them anymore and are very against them. When comments were made saying to remove them because.... The posters were only trying to help, the un-necessary comments you made such as "I dont need a lesson in reefkeeping" IMO were uncalled for. This board is full of people just trying to help others, I think we all have learned somthing here, that is why we all keep comming back! All everyone wants to do is help others the best they can, if you would have just told us why you needed your answer things could have gone much more smoothly. Please note that when you told us why people were willing to advise more. I hope things work out for the tank you are working on.
JB
A trickle filter is a perfectly acceptable and appropriate way to filter a large, fish only setup. Not a FOWLR, but a pure FO system, you really can't get much better than a good trickle filter. Yes, you'll run into some higher nitrates, especially if you don't prefilter debris and it gets into the bio-mass, but the fish in these types of systems are usually more than able to handle the nitrate numbers you'll see.
I tried a more experimental option a few years ago on a 125 gallon similar setup. I wanted to go sumpless, so I used an in-tank tunze skimmer and a hang-on fluidized bed filter. It was interesting, but the water level varied way too much to keep the skimmer running smoothly. The fluidized bed worked well until it got the tiniest bit clogged, then it solidified quickly. So that's always another option other than, or in addition to, a trickle filter.
I tried a more experimental option a few years ago on a 125 gallon similar setup. I wanted to go sumpless, so I used an in-tank tunze skimmer and a hang-on fluidized bed filter. It was interesting, but the water level varied way too much to keep the skimmer running smoothly. The fluidized bed worked well until it got the tiniest bit clogged, then it solidified quickly. So that's always another option other than, or in addition to, a trickle filter.
Indeed, nitrification has to happen somehow. Also, I don't think that asking such a question should garner the rough answers (don't really know if they qualify as flames). It's a simple question, if you don't know the answer then you can offer that, but don't go ball-bustin' when you don't know the situation.
I'm wondering if Ryan is actually servicing this setup, in which case if you want to make a living, you have to be willing to work within certain constraints the customer places upon you.
So, basically, what Sharkky said, with bells on. The nitrate build up (though I really hate the idea that bioballs = nitrate factory any more so than any other means of nitrification) can be dealt with via weekly water changes on the large side.
I'm wondering if Ryan is actually servicing this setup, in which case if you want to make a living, you have to be willing to work within certain constraints the customer places upon you.
So, basically, what Sharkky said, with bells on. The nitrate build up (though I really hate the idea that bioballs = nitrate factory any more so than any other means of nitrification) can be dealt with via weekly water changes on the large side.
I think that so many people are locked into the idea of reefs, or at the very least, fish-only-with-live-rock style tanks, that they have become obsessed with nitrates (this could be because this is reefs.org as well, I suppose), but fish, especially those types kept in the type of system we're discussing in this thread, are quite tolerant of higher nitrate loads.
Don't get me wrong, water changes--large ones at that--WILL be necessary, but as long as the tank isn't monstrously overloaded, once monthly should be more than adequate.
Don't get me wrong, water changes--large ones at that--WILL be necessary, but as long as the tank isn't monstrously overloaded, once monthly should be more than adequate.
I hope the replies weren't a bit too harsh, Ryan. I'm in the same boat as Sharkky--WD filters are a great filter for FO tanks. I have a 275 with probably around 30 gallons of bioballs. The 10% sounds like a good ratio.
FWIW, saltwater fish can handle some amazingly high nitrate levels w/o any problems. A prof here at the university raises halibut larvae. Keep in mind these fish are used to pretty much pristine water--he filters the water with, you guessed it, bioballs and nothing else. The nitrates are very high because of the very high stocking levels, but they grow like mad. It's a much, much cheaper method than adding 2-300# of LR at around a grand in price.
FWIW, saltwater fish can handle some amazingly high nitrate levels w/o any problems. A prof here at the university raises halibut larvae. Keep in mind these fish are used to pretty much pristine water--he filters the water with, you guessed it, bioballs and nothing else. The nitrates are very high because of the very high stocking levels, but they grow like mad. It's a much, much cheaper method than adding 2-300# of LR at around a grand in price.
Thanks to those whos input was valid.
I thought the question I asked was pretty straight forward, and twice I stated I just needed an answer to the question asked. Really it didn't matter what the reasons for using the bio-balls where, but some people hope to get some information from you that they might feel is the wrong way so they can feel good about correcting you.
Yes there are people who wouldn't know the difference between setting up a tank with bio-balls or a FOLR tank. That is why there is a new reefkeepers forum.
I was hoping to get a quick answer, guildline, suggestion to roughly how many bio-balls to use per gallon of water, as this tank is not mine and I was in the process of adding this method of filtration (for reasons already posted and more). Getting into long posts of what better methods there are is exactly what I was trying to avoid.
In the future I will post my questions/answers more carefully.
I thought the question I asked was pretty straight forward, and twice I stated I just needed an answer to the question asked. Really it didn't matter what the reasons for using the bio-balls where, but some people hope to get some information from you that they might feel is the wrong way so they can feel good about correcting you.
Yes there are people who wouldn't know the difference between setting up a tank with bio-balls or a FOLR tank. That is why there is a new reefkeepers forum.
I was hoping to get a quick answer, guildline, suggestion to roughly how many bio-balls to use per gallon of water, as this tank is not mine and I was in the process of adding this method of filtration (for reasons already posted and more). Getting into long posts of what better methods there are is exactly what I was trying to avoid.
In the future I will post my questions/answers more carefully.
so these people they run copper nonstop? just wondering, or are they planning on having sick fish? and yea for a FO tank with no live rock a trickle filter is a good option if you prefilter it really well and keep the prefilter clean. but after seeing how stable l/r can make a properly maintained system i just couldnt go back. i mean sure you can successfully keep a system with no live rock, sand bed , or skimmer, but it seems to me that a system withought the following... ESPECIALLY live rock are much more prone to Instant unexplained crashes. l/r systems are pretty rock solid
shr00m":3ib53r56 said:
I disagree to a certain extent. In a large fish-only system, especially one with nothing but large-eating fish (such as a predator tank--lions, triggers, eels, puffers, etc.), a large quantity of live rock would actually be a hindrance, unless you planned extensively ahead of time. The rock would almost have to be completely off the sandbed on risers with a pretty high flowrate not only over and under the rockwork, but also with powerheads set behind blowing through the rockwork to keep the leftover food moving and avoiding the dead-spots. Even then, rock structures are excellent at creating pockets of 'dead space' where leftover food and waste can collect.
Sure, some rock would be beneficial, not so much to the filtration, but for the animals' well-being (eels like to weave through rockwork, lions tend to sleep up against a rock or in a corner between sections of rock, etc.), but just like you don't need an anemone to keep a clownfish, you don't need rock to keep a FO tank. As I said, LR would actually make a tank like this less stable, IMO, unless it was planned for.
Indeed. While many folks poo-poo the idea of using bioballs (usually the same ones who insist salt tanks just cannot be filtered with a simple U.G.F.), for whatever reasons, there is no reason to extrapolate from their lack of denitrification abilities that they're prone to instant crashes or cannot be used as quite viable, long term nitrification solutions.
i know most people who are agains UGFs realise they work, but in a year or maybe 3 its gonna crash from the built up poop under it... sure it works for a while. also i believe l/r is good in a aggressive tank, you must turkey baste it 2 or 3 times a week and filter out the waste accumulated, but this is true for any l/r setup, properly maintained a l/r tank is going to be more stable than a tank without l/r.
trickle filters are fine... as long as you dont let waste build up on the balls and keep your prefilter clean. this is gonna require about as much work ass l/r though so i dont see why someone wouldnt want to invest in some l/r that makes the tank look nice than blowing it on some plastic balls. (im not talking about this situation because of the copper being used in the main tank for whatever reason)
trickle filters are fine... as long as you dont let waste build up on the balls and keep your prefilter clean. this is gonna require about as much work ass l/r though so i dont see why someone wouldnt want to invest in some l/r that makes the tank look nice than blowing it on some plastic balls. (im not talking about this situation because of the copper being used in the main tank for whatever reason)
See Ryan this is what you get for asking a simple question online!!
... Another thread gone astray...LOL
FWIW - my 1.5 cents...
There was a woman who owned a petshop I used to go to as a kid who kept a Volitan lion in a 50 gallon tank with a conventional UGF for over 15 years, so I have no doubt that they work long term. She also fed him freshwater guppies everyday - don't think I'd recommend that either.
Between taking care of my own tanks and helping friends, I've had some first-hand experience with FO tanks that had UGFs, reverse-flow UGFs, wet/drys, etc. and I know they can all work fine.
I found it much easier, however, to keep good, stable water parameters with a FOWLR setup. At least IME, that seemed to translate to better fish health. Could be coincidence I suppose. As an added bonus, IMO, a FOWLR tank also seems to handle power outages and/or pump failures better. Some of those mechanical aerobic filters can go South pretty quickly without flow...
JMO/JME...
... Another thread gone astray...LOLFWIW - my 1.5 cents...
There was a woman who owned a petshop I used to go to as a kid who kept a Volitan lion in a 50 gallon tank with a conventional UGF for over 15 years, so I have no doubt that they work long term.
She also fed him freshwater guppies everyday - don't think I'd recommend that either.Between taking care of my own tanks and helping friends, I've had some first-hand experience with FO tanks that had UGFs, reverse-flow UGFs, wet/drys, etc. and I know they can all work fine.
I found it much easier, however, to keep good, stable water parameters with a FOWLR setup. At least IME, that seemed to translate to better fish health. Could be coincidence I suppose. As an added bonus, IMO, a FOWLR tank also seems to handle power outages and/or pump failures better. Some of those mechanical aerobic filters can go South pretty quickly without flow...
JMO/JME...
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