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ChrisRD

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DaisyPolyp":2918vdsg said:
Actually, the quote was that the 400-520 range is most effective in elliciting tenticle retraction (a function of the coral's tissue), I stated before that 440-480 was the most important in coral photosynthesis (a function of the zooxanthellae). The coral doesn't want to get in the way of the light needed for the zooxanthellae, so it contracts before the optimal time and expands after the optimal time. referencing back to the chart you see that 400nm and 520nm are not anywhere near the peak spectrum shown for photosynthesis.

This statement makes no sense. The zooxanthellae are inside the coral's tissue... ...how would retracting the polyps help in attaining light energy?

Corals in reef tanks that are poorly lit will generally over-extend their polyps in an effort to get more light. They will generally show less extension under higher lighting intensities (at least until they acclimate to those conditions)...
 

DaisyPolyp

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ChrisRD":1s1mth2e said:
DaisyPolyp":1s1mth2e said:
Actually, the quote was that the 400-520 range is most effective in eliciting tentacle retraction (a function of the coral's tissue), I stated before that 440-480 was the most important in coral photosynthesis (a function of the zooxanthellae). The coral doesn't want to get in the way of the light needed for the zooxanthellae, so it contracts before the optimal time and expands after the optimal time. referencing back to the chart you see that 400nm and 520nm are not anywhere near the peak spectrum shown for photosynthesis.

Corals in reef tanks that are poorly lit will generally over-extend their polyps in an effort to get more light. They will generally show less extension under higher lighting intensities (at least until they acclimate to those conditions)...

This is a complete misinterpretation of coral behavior.
1. Coral in a low-light tank over extend their polyps because they're trying to get more planktonic food to supplement the lack of energy derived from the photosynthesis process.
2.
This statement makes no sense. The zooxanthellae are inside the coral's tissue... ...how would retracting the polyps help in attaining light energy?
Most reef corals expand their tentacles only at night (Lewis and Price, 1975; Porter, 1974)
a beam of light or mechanical stimulation can cause nocturnally expanded tentacles to contract immediately (Abe, 1939).
zooplankton is most abundant on coral reefs during the night (Sorokin, 1990).
On the coral reef at Eilat, in the northern Red Sea, the massive stony corals Favia favus and Plerogyra sinuosa expand their tentacles nocturnally and contract them at sunrise (O.Levy et. al, 2003).
daytime expansion of tentacles[...]may lead to an overall decrease in the photosynthetic rate, due to light scattering (Pearse, 1974; Robbins and Shick, 1980; Lasker, 1981).
in Acropora acuminata the light saturation level and the compensation point were 25% higher when polyps were contracted than when they were partially expanded (Crossland and Barnes, 1977)

(I will note that there are exceptions, namely within the genus Gonipora, because their tenticles have extremely high zooxanthellae densities)

References:

Lewis, J. B. and Price, W. S. (1975). Feeding mechanisms and feeding
strategies of Atlantic reef corals. J. Zool. 176, 527-544.

Porter, J. (1974). Zooplankton feeding by the Caribbean reef-building coral
Montastrea cavernosa. Proc. 2nd Int. Coral Reef Symp. 1, 111-125.
Brisbane, Australia: Great Barrier Reef Committee.

Abe, N. (1939). On the expansion and contraction of the polyp of a coral reef
Caulastrea furcata Dana. Palao. Trop. Biol. Stn. Stud. 1, 651-670.

Sorokin, Y. I. (1990). Plankton in the reef ecosystems. In Ecosystems of
the World, Coral Reef (ed. Z. Dubinsky), pp. 291-327. Amsterdam:
Elsevier.

O. Levy, Z. Dubinsky and Y. Achituv (2003). Photobehavior of stony
corals: responses to light spectra and intensity
The Journal of Experimental Biology 206, 4041-4049

Pearse, V. B. (1974). Modification of sea anemone behavior by symbiotic
zooxanthellae: Expansion and contraction. Biol. Bull. 147, 641-651.

Robbins, R. E. and Shick, J. M. (1980). Expansion–contraction behavior in
the sea anemone Metridium senile: Environmental clues and energetic
consequences. In Nutrition in the Lower Metazoa (ed. D. C. Smith and Y.
Tiffon), pp. 101-116. New York: Pergamon.

Lasker, H. R. (1981). Phenotypic variation in the coral Montastrea cavernosa
and its effects on colony energetics. Biol. Bull. 160, 292-302.

Crossland, C. J. and Barnes, D. J. (1977). Gas-exchange studies with staghorn
coral Acropora acuminata and its zooxanthellae. Mar. Biol. 40, 185-194.


...just in case you want to look it up. :wink:
 

ChrisRD

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DaisyPolyp":1i17155n said:
This is a complete misinterpretation of coral behavior.

Actually, it's not, you're just oversimplifying things again.

DaisyPolyp":1i17155n said:
1. Coral in a low-light tank over extend their polyps because they're trying to get more planktonic food to supplement the lack of energy derived from the photosynthesis process.

True. They also tend to show higher zooxanthellae densities and inflated/extended tissue/polyps to increase light uptake. Think about it - more surface area...

DaisyPolyp":1i17155n said:
Most reef corals expand their tentacles only at night (Lewis and Price, 1975; Porter, 1974)
a beam of light or mechanical stimulation can cause nocturnally expanded tentacles to contract immediately (Abe, 1939).
zooplankton is most abundant on coral reefs during the night (Sorokin, 1990).
On the coral reef at Eilat, in the northern Red Sea, the massive stony corals Favia favus and Plerogyra sinuosa expand their tentacles nocturnally and contract them at sunrise (O.Levy et. al, 2003).
daytime expansion of tentacles[...]may lead to an overall decrease in the photosynthetic rate, due to light scattering (Pearse, 1974; Robbins and Shick, 1980; Lasker, 1981).
in Acropora acuminata the light saturation level and the compensation point were 25% higher when polyps were contracted than when they were partially expanded (Crossland and Barnes, 1977)

(I will note that there are exceptions, namely within the genus Gonipora, because their tenticles have extremely high zooxanthellae densities)

Again, we're trying to compare nature to a glass box with artificial lighting. Most of our tanks don't see similar light levels or anywhere near the plankton levels on natural reefs so coral behavior is going to vary accordingly.
 

ryddo

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I have another question regarding MH. how long do you let them burn during the day? Time range? Do you think that different times during the day affect the growth of corals?
 

DaisyPolyp

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Again, we're trying to compare nature to a glass box with artificial lighting. Most of our tanks don't see similar light levels or anywhere near the plankton levels on natural reefs so coral behavior is going to vary accordingly.

well, hell, I guess we should stop investigating natural coral reefs because nothing ever seems to apply to our tanks. (at least that's the argument that's rolled out when its convienient)
 

ChrisRD

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DaisyPolyp":325xiyo3 said:
well, hell, I guess we should stop investigating natural coral reefs because nothing ever seems to apply to our tanks. (at least that's the argument that's rolled out when its convienient)

Yeah, that was exactly my point... :roll:

I think looking at parallels and data from natural reefs is useful. I just don't think it's useful to dissect it into little parts and take things out of context so you can find the answers you want while ignoring the rest. IMO there's lots of scientific data in this thread being used in a very presumptious, unscientific way. That has little value to me - sorry.

After all that's been said here, I (and I'm sure many others) still remain completely unconvinced of the claims that a monochromatic blue lamp is "better" than a lamp with a wider output range in the violet/blue/green spectrum over our captive reefs. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions!:)

I think this thread has passed beyond its useful life for me - it's been fun...
 

Unarce

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ChrisRD":1sdlvtjr said:
DaisyPolyp":1sdlvtjr said:
well, hell, I guess we should stop investigating natural coral reefs because nothing ever seems to apply to our tanks. (at least that's the argument that's rolled out when its convienient)

Yeah, that was exactly my point... :roll:

I think looking at parallels and data from natural reefs is useful. I just don't think it's useful to dissect it into little parts and take things out of context so you can find the answers you want while ignoring the rest. IMO there's lots of scientific data in this thread being used in a very presumptious, unscientific way. That has little value to me - sorry.

After all that's been said here, I (and I'm sure many others) still remain completely unconvinced of the claims that a monochromatic blue lamp is "better" than a lamp with a wider output range in the violet/blue/green spectrum over our captive reefs. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions!:)


WOW! 8O

This really has been fun, but to say that was your point speaks volumes of imperception and probably discredits your whole argument. The very basis of research and success in this hobby stems from the investigation of natural coral reefs (including by those whose names you've dropped). Where else would we begin?

zero = zip = zilch

This is how much you've provided to advocate why 6500K and 10000K is 'better'. Especially when your entire focus of 'better' is on growth alone.

The direction of the hobby is geared toward trying to simulate natural conditions, i.e. liverock, sand bed, wavemakers, reactors, plankton (additions that have translated to worldwide success in keeping corals that were once too difficult). Why should lighting be any different.

I guess our goals are just different. You obviously look towards getting the maximum growth out of your corals. My concern is overall health. It's important for newbies and the experienced alike to make that distinction. Now this may sound cooky, but simulating natural conditions somehow achieves that.

ChrisRD":1sdlvtjr said:
I think this thread has passed beyond its useful life for me - it's been fun...

Don't let it's usefulness pass over you.
:wink:
 

liquid

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Honestly I think as long as you have a high intensity, high PAR, and are somewhere between 5500 K and 20,000 K with your bulbs your corals will grow just fine. Also, I'd like to point out that Sanjay's running 400 watt Iwasaki's on his Penn State tank. There has to be a reason for that. ;)

Shane
 

Unarce

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liquid":b9jl1vqw said:
running 400 watt Iwasaki's on his Penn State tank. There has to be a reason for that. ;)

Shane

They actually run 4 400W Ushio 10K's on the Penn State tank. The tank is a nice crisp white and blue tint (which is apparent in the pic, hmmm). Depending on the ballast, it's not yellow like the Ushio 10K double-ends that many report. :wink:
 

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ChrisRD

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reefnutz":fnfi2k2a said:
to say that was your point speaks volumes of imperception and probably discredits your whole argument.

You're entitled to your opinion. Of course you missed the point entirely, but that's OK - I'm getting used to that.;)

reefnutz":fnfi2k2a said:
The very basis of research and success in this hobby stems from the investigation of natural coral reefs

Yes, I agree. That's why I acknowledged that data as being useful. What is your point?

reefnutz":fnfi2k2a said:
zero = zip = zilch

This is how much you've provided to advocate why 6500K and 10000K is 'better'.

I was never trying to show that any particular type of lighting was "better". That was your position, remember?

You're sorta swinging at the shadows now and it's making you look a bit silly...

reefnutz":fnfi2k2a said:
Especially when your entire focus of 'better' is on growth alone.

Are you reading the thread, or just making things up now? Why are you putting words in others' mouths just for the sake of being argumentative?

reefnutz":fnfi2k2a said:
I guess our goals are just different.

Yes, my goal was reasonable debate to present a different point of view.

Yours seems to be endless ranting about the one, correct lighting system that we should all be using, no matter how ineffective you are at proving out your theory.
 

ChrisRD

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liquid":3jp3hj71 said:
Honestly I think as long as you have a high intensity, high PAR, and are somewhere between 5500 K and 20,000 K with your bulbs your corals will grow just fine.

I agree.:)

Now where would you get a crazy idea like that Shane? Maybe because it's been working for decades?;)
 

ChrisRD

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reefnutz":26rtpceh said:
They actually run 4 400W Ushio 10K's on the Penn State tank.

Yes, with no blue supplemental lighting.

Shane is probably thinking of Sanjay's home tank (and maybe a prior lighting system on the Penn State tank).

On Sanjay's home 180 SPS tank he was using 400 watt Iwasakis for years with incredible results. Don't take my word for it. Ask him yourself.
 

Unarce

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ChrisRD":19wh4nsu said:
reefnutz":19wh4nsu said:
You flip-flop more then Kerry.

Not really. The rest of us just don't have it all figured out like you do.;)

Oh stop. :oops:

Really, I can't help but think that this thread will help newbies form their own opinion and hopefully be on their way to the reef tank of their dreams. This has been great.

I gotta go, as my son has just drawn a Blue Eyes White Dragon. Thanks for your competitve fire. :D
 

krullulon

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reefnutz":3bmnd6wr said:
Really, I can't help but think that this thread will help newbies form their own opinion and hopefully be on their way to the reef tank of their dreams. This has been great.

yes -- threads like these are fantastic, because i get all the conflicting opinions in one handy location.

this particular thread exposed me to some links that caused me to scrap my ushio 10ks for XM 10ks, and i'm way happier... so thanks! :D
 

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