Old Tank Syndrome: What's your thoughts?

[wade1]

how does one change 90% of the water without exposing animals on the upper part of the tank to air for too long?

Accumulation of toxic compounds is a possibility in our systems, although it is moderated by heavy skimmer, activated carbon, and 30-50% water changes.

90% water changes would be very difficult, mainly due, not to the fact that corals are out of the water, but rather by the fact that you will have a hard time matching temp, salinity, and other conditions. Without very close matching, you risk putting your animals through some fairly heavy stress load. Not something I recommend. 50% will still frequently expose a few corals, but as long as your halides aren't beating down on them while exposed, that tends to matter little to most (don't expose sponges!).

Wade

 

[m-fine]

There are two ways to change 90%+, I have done both but like the dry method better.

The "wet method" is done by making a new batch of water that is slightly colder and maybe a little higher in salinity so it is heavier. All circulation is turned off and the new water is carefully pumped to the bottom of the tank and the old water flows out the overflow. The inhabitents stay wat, but there is at least a temperature change if not also a salinity change so there is some shocking and also there is some water mixing, so you need to add 150% to get 90% of the old water out. I have done this twice many years ago without killing anything but it definitely didn't make them happy. I know other people who do this on a regular basis successfully.

To change 90% with the dry method, I collect RO water for a couple days, then mix a batch of water in huge plastic tubs. A circulating pump and airstone mix the salt and aerate the water, and I have a heater in there matched to the tank temp, cross verified with a floating thermometer I can move up and back.

I let the water aerate over night then I make the final match for the salinity. Large heavy softies like a big leather or a colt that might not be able to support their own weight get moved to a temp holding tank.

I do any detritus siphoning first, while everything is still under water, and then once the animals are getting exposed I add a larger hose and drain as fast as I can. I have an old rio 2100 that I use to pump water back up to the tank from the mixing bins which fills my 65 in about 10-15 minutes, during which I make sure to keep everyone moist.

I was scared S!@# less the first time I did this but I was convinced by a better reefer then I that it would cause no harm and that everything in my tank had survived several much bigger shocks on the way to my tank. Everything has survived so far, in fact within an hour all the polyps are opened up and you can't even tell something happened. I did this probably 10-12 times in my 29 gal Berlin system to keep nitrates down between 89 and when I lost it all to an 11 day power outage in 91. I'd say I have probably done it 4-5 times in my 65 so far, and I have done it for 3 other tanks to help out friends.

The dry method seems better to me since I think most animals handle brief exposure to air better then temp and salinity changes. I would imagine it is pretty hard to do on a larger tank though. To do a 300 in the same time I do my 65 would mean draining and refilling at 5 times the flow rate without blasting things around. The logistics of staging that much water might be a real problem too.

m-fine

 

[m-fine]

Just a note, I am not recommending you do this, and certainly not that you do all water changes this way. I am just telling you it can be done and how, and that I have been able to do it without loss. If you do it in your tank it is your decision to weigh the risks and the benefits. I last did it in my 65 in June, and prior to that was 4 years ago. I am thinking about doing it once a year or maybe once every 2 years, but I wouldn't do it more often then that unless there was some sort of contamination I wanted to get out fast.

m-fine

 

[Anonymous]

mine is 2.5 yrs old and i have heard that an aged mature tank can even take on nasty habits, like my HA problem...But im not sure either what is considered old tank? i like to think mine is young...could it be a problem with LR (assuming that one has LR or a Sand bed)...Could the LR be "breaking down" for a lack of a better word..
wrassie points out that "The same rock i've had for close to 8 yrs now.I am going to start replacing it, and i have a feeling all the problems that seem to have leeched over from the 90g will all disapear." See, im just a hobbyist and not a scientist in this field, but i would think that LR old or new would be the same..once the cycle has established, i cant see LR "breaking down" unless the circle of life with the LR is/has crashed..

 

[wrassie86]

wrassie points out that "The same rock i've had for close to 8 yrs now.I am going to start replacing it, and i have a feeling all the problems that seem to have leeched over from the 90g will all disapear." See, im just a hobbyist and not a scientist in this field, but i would think that LR old or new would be the same..once the cycle has established, i cant see LR "breaking down" unless the circle of life with the LR is/has crashed..


My thought on this was,that over the years the the rocks just got plugged up.the worms ect that live in the rock exspire and what not.
I did replace 80% of my rock yesterday so i will be seeing if levels come back under control and my nitrate issue dissaperes.

 

[Anonymous]

Would increasing the flow in the tank so that the rock doesn't get plugged up along with adding a new fauna kit every few years help the "old rock" syndome?

Is it old rock or old tank or a combination of both?

Is this a water chemistry subject or a depleted diversity of fauna subject? Or both?

Louey

 

[wrassie86]

Would increasing the flow in the tank so that the rock doesn't get plugged up along with adding a new fauna kit every few years help the "old rock" syndome?

Is it old rock or old tank or a combination of both?

Is this a water chemistry subject or a depleted diversity of fauna subject? Or both?

Louey

For me i dont think i can increase flow much more.wave2k in the center,2x6100 streams on controller 800 to 1000gph return for a 125g.Fauna kits are great for the sand bed.but think of the creatures that come in the rocks that you cant buy.Dr Ron kinda made up my mind about this.and i know he really does'nt recomend fuana kits any longer.Also it's kinda hard to force water in to a rock.i think its more the worms that take it in and out.along with other creatures.

But I think it is a depleted diversity of fauna that causes water chem problems.Atleast for me.But since replacing my rocks i have started water changes again and if the levels start to drop in my tank i will know the rock was the cause.Since really there was no other cause for what was happening.

 

[Anonymous]

Would increasing the flow in the tank so that the rock doesn't get plugged up along with adding a new fauna kit every few years help the "old rock" syndome?

Is it old rock or old tank or a combination of both?

Is this a water chemistry subject or a depleted diversity of fauna subject? Or both?

Louey

I think it is a combo of both. I think the issue may be bacteria population, which should be relatively easy to deal with via small inoculations of fresh LR, not anything larger.

I think it is important to export excess nutrients. If they stay in the tank in a sandbed or in/on the rock work they are just going to stay in the sand or in/on the rock. With good flow, and no sand, it is easy to see all the detritus that rock sheds.

I think the fauna kits are a waste of money if you want them to help keep the tank 'clean', but are a good use of money if you like the animals.

There! Random thoughts!

 

[Anonymous]

Righty wrote:

I think the fauna kits are a waste of money if you want them to help keep the tank 'clean', but are a good use of money if you like the animals.

I think the animals help sustain fish like Manderin's that really need natural food.

Louey

 

[wrassie86]

I know Dr Ron likes to say that besides the lack of devirsity over time.the rocks and sand tend to absorb metal from the salt mixes and what not.i guesse its something to think about also.if they are indeed absorbing these compounds then that in it self could cause problems.down the road and contribute to OTS.

 

[wade1]

That whole metal theory is nothing but guesses without background information unfortunately. It is not outside of the realm of possibility, but he's shown no evidence for the accumulation of metals of any kind.

Some specifics: Copper is chelated, under anaerobic conditions (as in rock and sand), to CuS (copper sulfate) which is relatively stable as long as you don't have a highly acid pH shift (which doesn't happen in reef tanks). Most of the other metals of concern are taken up by biological processes and living critters... so I have a hard time believing the accumulation theory.

That said, it again falls back to good maintenance and good export mechanisms in a reef. If you fail to do water changes and keep things clean, everything will accumulate in some form (including organic acids, toxins, and so on).

Wade

 

[Anonymous]

I have a suggestion, and please, this is a newbie suggestion, not fact, rumor, or research...

Perhaps most of the reefs in the wild experience a traumatic and significant change in their water chemistry, their infrastructure, or their environment every 5 years or so (hurricane, cyclone, climate modification, current cycle, etc) Should we be emulating this?

I know that I do fairly regularly, since I am one of those people that can not keep his/her hands out of the tank. I have restacked majorly once and my 150 is only 9 months old. I have restacked minorly and moved corals every few months or so to try and encourage growth. Now, I am not sure I have achieved my goal, but I do not have the black layer of sand that most people describe. And I only have minor algae problems.

Just my inexperienced $.02 worth.

 

[magicman76]

Ive read the artical in question.. And Ive read many other articals over a span of about 15 years by Julian (his system did not used to have the Monico/Jambert system when I first started reading his articals).. He stated in the artical from what I remember the time frame was around 10 years for this OTS to occur..

Ive seen this LR swap out idea and Ive wondered if anyone has read about the procedure called live rock "cooking" performed by many SPS bare bottom tank keepers to keep LR sheading down to a minium.. I would find this a much better alternitive then disposing of liverock that happens to be old.. the "cooking" process has nothing to do with heat or actuall cooking of the rock so if it hasnt been heared of please dont freak out LOL.. I didnt coin the term I might have tried a litte harder to get the point across but the title would have been very long and not as catchy.. LOL
the only cure for a DSB IMHO is replacing it once it becomes full of PO4/old.. something that I personaly would want to avoid at all costs.. through export..

 

[wrassie86]

After my ordeal with OTS or what was thought to be.The rock exchange has become a very atractive idea that i will use if i see rocks that seem to be going down hill.And yes "cooking"the rock is a very fine idea.all of the rock i have now is "cooked"before being placed in the tank.swapped out rock will also be "cooked"as needed.