hi i am new to the form but i really need help bad all my fishes are dieing for ich i don't know what to do i been treating with kick ich but its not helping some one at a fish store in town told me to use a bit of hydergine peroxid i don't know if any of you have tried it but i don't have another tank to move my fish to what can i do its a reef tank so i cant use something with copper and they guy said hydergine peroxid would do the trick i don't know if i should do it i also dont have a pic of it but i am sure its ich please help i dont want my fish or corals to die
ich infestation PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter tano53180
- Start date
IMO, Kick Ich is totally useless. Hydrogen Peroxide will do nothing but kill your animals. There are treatments.
More info would help.
How big a tank?
How many fish in the tank?
How old is the tank?
What fish have ich?
Are you sure its ich?
BTW - :welcome:
Sorry it couldn't have been under better circumstances.
More info would help.
How big a tank?
How many fish in the tank?
How old is the tank?
What fish have ich?
Are you sure its ich?
BTW - :welcome:
Sorry it couldn't have been under better circumstances.
Strengthening the animals' immune systems is the best way. Disease is ever present.
They must be stressed.
I'd recommend making your own garlic and nutrient soaked foods, with fresh seafood, seaweed, Selcon (or other marine vitamins), and maybe a powdered vitamin c tablet blended together.
Then freeze and feed chunks. You can also try Spectrum Thera +A dry food.
Maybe reduce light cycle, maybe add some cleaner shrimp.
Is there an aggressor in your tank? Can you add extra skimming or carbon to help clean the water? Do a water change too for water quality, perhaps.
Water quality, reducing stress, feeding vitamin-rich foods, and adding parasite cleaners (cleaner shrimp or neon gobies) are my best shot.
I've lost fish to ich. I've recovered fish from ich. High-nutrient foods are very beneficial but can easily pollute your tank, so feed sparingly at a single feeding. Fish seem to respond to those treatments.
I wouldn't F/W dip. It stresses those animals to the point of breaking IMO. They need less stress, not more.
They must be stressed.
I'd recommend making your own garlic and nutrient soaked foods, with fresh seafood, seaweed, Selcon (or other marine vitamins), and maybe a powdered vitamin c tablet blended together.
Then freeze and feed chunks. You can also try Spectrum Thera +A dry food.
Maybe reduce light cycle, maybe add some cleaner shrimp.
Is there an aggressor in your tank? Can you add extra skimming or carbon to help clean the water? Do a water change too for water quality, perhaps.
Water quality, reducing stress, feeding vitamin-rich foods, and adding parasite cleaners (cleaner shrimp or neon gobies) are my best shot.
I've lost fish to ich. I've recovered fish from ich. High-nutrient foods are very beneficial but can easily pollute your tank, so feed sparingly at a single feeding. Fish seem to respond to those treatments.
I wouldn't F/W dip. It stresses those animals to the point of breaking IMO. They need less stress, not more.
Yeah, raising immune systems is all fine and dandy for the fish in your tank to not show much signs of ich, but if you add any other fish to the tank they might not have a high immune system because the ich will still be in the tank. I've recently went through a large loss due to some stupidity on my part by not realizing that a particular LFS I tried out had inverts in a tank with fish, and while I can't be certain it's just a little to coincidiental than I had what looked like ich (I'm still unsure) shortly after putting a couple urchins in the water (even though I didn't dump the water in there was some water on the urchins themselves). Lost Naso tang, kole tang, tomato clown, royal gramma, coral beauty... pretty much all my pretty fish, I'm left with only 4 chromis, 1 blue damsel, 1 tomato clown & 1 foxface, and a blenny & goby I hardly ever see But I know there's still ich in the tank, so I'm not replacing the dead fish.
What my plan of action is though, is eventually (within a month hopefully) I'm going to be moving all my tanks downstairs, so I can rebuild the tank from scratch, keep the fish isolated and treat them as needed (hyposalinity definately will be used), wait 6-8 weeks with an empty tank (hey I'll probably need to cycle it anyways!) then start introducing the fish back in. Of course I still have quite a few fish left so it might be difficult. And i"m still unsure if it was ich, since my naso didn't show any white spots he just got grey dots on him (but clowns did get white spots, even on eyeballs, but they went away in a day).
What my plan of action is though, is eventually (within a month hopefully) I'm going to be moving all my tanks downstairs, so I can rebuild the tank from scratch, keep the fish isolated and treat them as needed (hyposalinity definately will be used), wait 6-8 weeks with an empty tank (hey I'll probably need to cycle it anyways!) then start introducing the fish back in. Of course I still have quite a few fish left so it might be difficult. And i"m still unsure if it was ich, since my naso didn't show any white spots he just got grey dots on him (but clowns did get white spots, even on eyeballs, but they went away in a day).
No it is not. This is an animal, an organim we're talking about. There are things it needs to survive just like any other animal. It's not magical. It CAN be prevented form entering a system. That it can't, or is "always there" is total bullcrap. That is an old wives tale believed only by the ignorant nowdays. It's an erroneus statement made by people who lack knowledge of what an obligate protozoan is. In my 20 years of keeping marine fish, it still floors me how many people, including store employees and supposedly knowledgeable aquaritsts still believe this rididculous assertion.
I suggest you further educate yourself on this matter, and read up on the various published papers out there, or articles online by Terry Bartelme or Steven Pro.
I suggest you start here http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/aqu ... ish_1.html
C. irritans is no more "ever present" than cleaner shrimp or any other animal.
Sorry if I seem pissy, but I'm sick and tired of reading this garbage by now.
Jim
Righty":3iz4g42g said:I am far from convinced that garlic does anything other than make people feel like they are doing something.
I have the same opinion. The only possible benefit I can see is that if it makes the fish eat more then it might have more strength to fight off the parasite.
I think a low stress environment is the best preventative IMO and a Hyposalinity treatment (in a hospital tank) is the best cure when the fish is unable to fight it off on their own.
Jim – are we debating religion or politics here? Your response seems a bit emotional for a discussion of how to help a guy with sick fish. I’m glad you choose to discuss and I will read what you link to, but shouldn’t we stick to logic and reason not emotion? Please? I respectfully submit you can make your point without implied profanity or dismissive language. I’m glad you consider yourself the pinnacle of understanding. I get my information from other informed people who are no less experienced than you. Sorry you doubt that dormancy happens. Even if it doesn't, you don't have license to be pissy and insulting.
Mike – sorry about your loss. Ugh. Glad to see another familiar face here. I used to surf RDO only, switched, and am now back to stay. I hate it when I lose fish to illness… and it’s always the most colorful, expensive uncommon ones to succumb to parasites.
Eddie Hanson convinced me disease is ever-present. I may not know much, but he certainly does. He runs a net-caught fish and captive coral farm in Tonga, owns a servicing company, and had the premier LFS north of LA for years. I trust his opinion. He’s also forgotten more about F/W than most will ever know about salt. The guy knows what he’s talking about.
My evidence is having fish with no illness for a long period of time. Something in the system changes, say they get moved (even though I kept all the water from the 55g and carefully added a mix to the rest for the new 135g) or new fish are introduced (healthy fairy wrasses kept at a wholesaler for 2 months), then a few fish got stressed, got sick, and died.
If parasites weren’t dormant, my fish would not have gotten sick. They didn’t die because they were sad.
Terrestrial example – why do people get tonsils removed? How could disease appear within animals that previously showed no outward signs for a long time? Could it be dormant parasites?
Even if you disagree, getting dramatic doesn't make your point and its disrespectful. Feel free to help the guy, but don't bash me.
Regardless, my points about stress, nutrition, and parasite cleaners are perfectly valid. You're more pissy than I am "ignorant." You misspelled aquarists, nowadays, erroneous and ridiculous. Relax and help the guy. Don't attack me or others who don't see the awesome light of understanding you have.
I'm busy, I type fast, Errors exist. Get over it.
Again, read up and educate yourself on what an obligate protozoan is, most especially C. irritans.
The salient point is, parasites are not always present in your system as a matter of course.
I make responses and give advice based on known facts, experience and empircal data, not what someone else told me.
Having said that, it wasn't my intention to bash you. Again, the fact that this belief still exists, with anyone, Eddie Hanson just proves my point. Old wives tails die hard. I get irritated when it's said matter of factly as "truth" on a board.
Thus my pissyness.
A sub-accute infection, or parasites being "dormant" is a different issue than "always there" which doesn't happen.
Tonsillitis is not caused by an obligate protozoan.
I'd paste this in Word and check for spelling errors as I typed very quickly again, but then you'd nothing to refute. :wink:
P.S.
I'm having a bitchy day - don't take it personaly.
Again, read up and educate yourself on what an obligate protozoan is, most especially C. irritans.
The salient point is, parasites are not always present in your system as a matter of course.
I make responses and give advice based on known facts, experience and empircal data, not what someone else told me.
Having said that, it wasn't my intention to bash you. Again, the fact that this belief still exists, with anyone, Eddie Hanson just proves my point. Old wives tails die hard. I get irritated when it's said matter of factly as "truth" on a board.
Thus my pissyness.
A sub-accute infection, or parasites being "dormant" is a different issue than "always there" which doesn't happen.
Tonsillitis is not caused by an obligate protozoan.
I'd paste this in Word and check for spelling errors as I typed very quickly again, but then you'd nothing to refute. :wink:
P.S.
I'm having a bitchy day - don't take it personaly.
Right on man.
I'd like to believe a statement that infectious organisms are essentially everywhere (I've battled them in many ways, levels, organisms, including myself) isn't generally enough to get such a dramatic reaction from you.
Relax and remember it's almost Friday!
I had to get my tonsils and adenoids removed because streptococcus is ever present within my mouth. Pretty much everybody's. My system was failing and letting it through pretty much anytime my immune function was compromised. I got strep throat at least 2-3 times a year, in spite of having no contact with infected people.
Oodinium killed my beloved v-tail grouper who had lived in captivity for a loooong time. He was my only fish. Nothing new was introduced to the system. I realize oordinium is a very different organism. But it was present, regardless of him not having it for a long time.
Near as I can tell, animals harbor a lot of bacteria, virus, and other parasites - generally in the mouth area where the body is supposed to catch it. When immune systems are compromised by stress, the infection begins.
If the body and immune system are strong enough, these pests don't get in. Cryptocaron irritans may not have this lifecycle - I always thought they died if they weren't immediately infesting a host.
It was explained to me that disease is harbored in the body of the fish, and stress brings it out.
I don't like the f/w dip idea because it freaks fish out completely. I just got one f/w dipped and it promptly disappeared into my system never to be seen from again. The dip was detrimental, IMO.
Low lighting and slow acclimation reduce stress. Nutritious foods strengthen immune systems. For me, hyposalinity and copper stressed my animals beyond advantages. They beat ich and lateral line when I feed homemade foods, but I have to minimize them since they create a nutrient rich environment when not fully eaten.
Just my take. I'm not a pathologist or ichthyologist. Or even an ich-ologist. Just trying to help a guy who's desperate not to watch his fish die.
Just remember about arguing on the internet. Oh, and drink a beer for me when you get home. I don't mind the typos btw, only when you go into a tailspin on me Jim. I'll buy you a brew next time I'm in Fremont. And you probably know Eddie, so you know he's not an ignoramus, even if he didn't specifically mention ich RE: f/w dip to me. I agree with him that f/w dip is stressful.
I'd like to believe a statement that infectious organisms are essentially everywhere (I've battled them in many ways, levels, organisms, including myself) isn't generally enough to get such a dramatic reaction from you.
Relax and remember it's almost Friday!
I had to get my tonsils and adenoids removed because streptococcus is ever present within my mouth. Pretty much everybody's. My system was failing and letting it through pretty much anytime my immune function was compromised. I got strep throat at least 2-3 times a year, in spite of having no contact with infected people.
Oodinium killed my beloved v-tail grouper who had lived in captivity for a loooong time. He was my only fish. Nothing new was introduced to the system. I realize oordinium is a very different organism. But it was present, regardless of him not having it for a long time.
Near as I can tell, animals harbor a lot of bacteria, virus, and other parasites - generally in the mouth area where the body is supposed to catch it. When immune systems are compromised by stress, the infection begins.
If the body and immune system are strong enough, these pests don't get in. Cryptocaron irritans may not have this lifecycle - I always thought they died if they weren't immediately infesting a host.
It was explained to me that disease is harbored in the body of the fish, and stress brings it out.
I don't like the f/w dip idea because it freaks fish out completely. I just got one f/w dipped and it promptly disappeared into my system never to be seen from again. The dip was detrimental, IMO.
Low lighting and slow acclimation reduce stress. Nutritious foods strengthen immune systems. For me, hyposalinity and copper stressed my animals beyond advantages. They beat ich and lateral line when I feed homemade foods, but I have to minimize them since they create a nutrient rich environment when not fully eaten.
Just my take. I'm not a pathologist or ichthyologist. Or even an ich-ologist. Just trying to help a guy who's desperate not to watch his fish die.
Just remember about arguing on the internet. Oh, and drink a beer for me when you get home. I don't mind the typos btw, only when you go into a tailspin on me Jim. I'll buy you a brew next time I'm in Fremont. And you probably know Eddie, so you know he's not an ignoramus, even if he didn't specifically mention ich RE: f/w dip to me. I agree with him that f/w dip is stressful.
Woo now people. Like Righty said in his first post, before anyone should be making any suggestions you need to know what the problem is. And ick is a symptom not a cause. Even though the poster never said what his system was I would bet the bank that he has at least 1 but probably 4 things going against him.
1- To many fish
2- To small of a tank
3- Not a mature enough system
wildcard
4- Receiving bad information from an LFS.
So before anyone should recommend garlic, ginger, freshwater dip, hypo salinity you need to get the facts.
Why you do you bother to go see a doctor??
Heck you can look online and in a book and find a million ways to treat a cough, runny nose, or sore throat. These are all symptoms and not causes.
That is why we go see the doctor.
I really wish that tano would tell us his system configuration, but like I said I bet the bank that he has at least 2 of the problems I have outlined if not all 4 of them.
SaveTheReefs
1- To many fish
2- To small of a tank
3- Not a mature enough system
wildcard
4- Receiving bad information from an LFS.
So before anyone should recommend garlic, ginger, freshwater dip, hypo salinity you need to get the facts.
Why you do you bother to go see a doctor??
Heck you can look online and in a book and find a million ways to treat a cough, runny nose, or sore throat. These are all symptoms and not causes.
That is why we go see the doctor.
I really wish that tano would tell us his system configuration, but like I said I bet the bank that he has at least 2 of the problems I have outlined if not all 4 of them.
SaveTheReefs
Agreed, but it depends on the species. You can throw moray eels, groupers, passer angelfish, koran angelfish and triggers into a properly prepared freshwtater dip, come back 10 minutes later, throw them back in the tank and a little while later they're none the worse for wear.
Is it a good practice? Probably not, and it's of fairly limited utility anyway. Years ago I did this fairly routinely while working at a wholesaler though.
The thing with an obligate protozoan, it cannot exist in a system unless it's able to complete it's life cycle. Once you understand the life cycle, theront protomont, tomont, trophont it becomes evident that it can not only be erradicated from the system, but it's introduction can be avoided as well.
On garlic. There is something to it. I'm not ready to say how much yet, I'm just not there. However there's a bit more than false confidence for the person administering it. My guess is at best, it's a little boost or a bit of insurance for a tough fish that has a chance of fighting it off on it's own anyway. I've now used it twice in quarantine tanks, and the infection subsided. This doesn't tell me much. Would the infection have subsided anyway? Perhaps. However long years of experience has taught me that once begun, and unless medication or hypo is administered, the infection normaly persists until the host fish are eventually dead.
An advanced infection - forget it. Even a mild infection on a delicate species such as a Powder blue? Again, nope.
Jim
Thanks for calming the discussion down guys.
Ich is prolly in the top three most heated discussions in our hobby. I think its because, due to its lifecycle, it often seems to clear up on its own, so there is anecdotal evidence that ANY treatment works. Really. Any. I have heard people claim that changing their lights in their tank cured the ich.
My powder blue had ich. I just upped the feedings on the idea that garlic might coax the fish to eat more, but used no garlic. The fish is fat and happy and ich free for 8 months.
There may be something to garlic, there may not. Thats the problem, IMO.
:mrgreen:
I believe less of ginger. I was involved in the thread where it all started, warning that it would become lore that ginger cures ich. It has. It doesn't.
Jake, be careful of your gurus, because they change their minds and are just as prone to being wrong as the rest of us. As I left Tonga last week, all the fish were being treated for white spot (the didn't all have it) with freshwater dips.
I don't agree that disease is always present, and I don't agree that parasites, like ich, are always present. There is no lice in my house! And if there was, I would eradicate it rather than reduce it to 'acceptable' levels. However a parasite could become present any time, which is a good reason to keep people/fish healthy.
Good discussion. I hope the original poster actually chimes in again!
Ich is prolly in the top three most heated discussions in our hobby. I think its because, due to its lifecycle, it often seems to clear up on its own, so there is anecdotal evidence that ANY treatment works. Really. Any. I have heard people claim that changing their lights in their tank cured the ich.
My powder blue had ich. I just upped the feedings on the idea that garlic might coax the fish to eat more, but used no garlic. The fish is fat and happy and ich free for 8 months.
There may be something to garlic, there may not. Thats the problem, IMO.
:mrgreen:
I believe less of ginger. I was involved in the thread where it all started, warning that it would become lore that ginger cures ich. It has. It doesn't.
Jake, be careful of your gurus, because they change their minds and are just as prone to being wrong as the rest of us. As I left Tonga last week, all the fish were being treated for white spot (the didn't all have it) with freshwater dips.
I don't agree that disease is always present, and I don't agree that parasites, like ich, are always present. There is no lice in my house!
And if there was, I would eradicate it rather than reduce it to 'acceptable' levels. However a parasite could become present any time, which is a good reason to keep people/fish healthy.Good discussion. I hope the original poster actually chimes in again!
I usually dip the fish in fresh water (actually 40% salt water/60% fresh water) half an hour a day and I isolate them in the sump for a week or so. Period. Usually does the trick. The darkness in the sump probably reduces stress.
Right now I have 2 zebrasomas (1 flavescens, 1 desjardini) in treatment and they are already getting better.
Best of luck.
These fish are sick because I was lazy and didn't quarentine them.
Right now I have 2 zebrasomas (1 flavescens, 1 desjardini) in treatment and they are already getting better.
Best of luck.
These fish are sick because I was lazy and didn't quarentine them.
Spidermites exist in your house, right now, and you cannot possibly stop them.
When your palm trees' defense grinds down, it will be attacked.
Honest!
I bet lice are possibly present. Tiny arachnids are unstoppable. You have spidermites, 100% guaranteed. And I do hate spidermites.
When your palm trees' defense grinds down, it will be attacked.
Honest!
I bet lice are possibly present. Tiny arachnids are unstoppable. You have spidermites, 100% guaranteed. And I do hate spidermites.
I have often adopted fish with Ick. I put them in my Lagoon untreated and in 2 or 3 days it's gone. No Garlic, no chemicals, no changing light bulbs. It just goes away.
My thoughts are similar to SaveTheReefs. The fish were stressed sufficiently to compromise their immune system, Crypto takes advantage. Once I place them in a large system with no aggressive fish they can fight it off on their own. This has worked just as I described on a Hippo Tang, Powderblue Tang, Pencil-Streaked Rabbitfish, a couple of Engineer Gobies, a few Neon Gobies, and a Clown Goby. The Tangs seem to be the quickest to get rid of it, sometimes in less than a day.
My thoughts are similar to SaveTheReefs. The fish were stressed sufficiently to compromise their immune system, Crypto takes advantage. Once I place them in a large system with no aggressive fish they can fight it off on their own. This has worked just as I described on a Hippo Tang, Powderblue Tang, Pencil-Streaked Rabbitfish, a couple of Engineer Gobies, a few Neon Gobies, and a Clown Goby. The Tangs seem to be the quickest to get rid of it, sometimes in less than a day.
Another thing I did not mention, but I am a strong believer of
"healthy and happy fish do not die from ick" theory.
The last time I had a fish with ick was when I tried to keep a very delicate hybrid tang. It was a cross between a gold rim and achilles. I was unable to get him to eat enough and he stressed out and eventually died. But even though he had ick, myself and my partner (business) who is marine biologist and a curator at a public aquarium could not figure out what was physically wrong with the fish. He had some other problems.
My point is this, this tang was housed with at least 20 other fish and none of the others showed a single sign of ick. Obviously these fish were happy, healthy, and had been living together for years. Therefore they were not stressed.
Now before someone says something about my hybrid tang here is a link to a picture of him.
http://www.geocities.com/balljack1/Tang.gif
SaveTheReefs
"healthy and happy fish do not die from ick" theory.
The last time I had a fish with ick was when I tried to keep a very delicate hybrid tang. It was a cross between a gold rim and achilles. I was unable to get him to eat enough and he stressed out and eventually died. But even though he had ick, myself and my partner (business) who is marine biologist and a curator at a public aquarium could not figure out what was physically wrong with the fish. He had some other problems.
My point is this, this tang was housed with at least 20 other fish and none of the others showed a single sign of ick. Obviously these fish were happy, healthy, and had been living together for years. Therefore they were not stressed.
Now before someone says something about my hybrid tang here is a link to a picture of him.
http://www.geocities.com/balljack1/Tang.gif
SaveTheReefs
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