raising PH without Kalk...

[jsteel]

ive been experiancing trouble with sps and coraline growth rates. everything tests normal enough wiht salifert kits:
nitrate:0
phos:0
alk:8.5dkh
cal:>500
redox:380
250w 10k xm halides and 4 55w blue PC's <new lights
75g tank, 72g sump/fuge; ER skimmer

only abnormality is ph. it never reaches beyond 8.1 and you can see, cal so high as it is, i don't want to dose Kalk unless i have to.
does anyone know of an effective way to raise ph in another way?

by the way all sps look very healthy and i do have coralline, they just don't grow at rate i would consider normal or at least acceptable; won't even grow on glass, only on plastic. Oh, and zoo's and mushrooms also look healthy but don't grow and my lps's don't open as much as i know they can.
i don't know, is something else i'm overlooking?

anything would be appreciated as i feel like everything i've done is right yet nothing happens.

i'm really frustrated! please help!!!

 

[ChrisRD]

8.1 isn't all that low - when are you measuring pH?
Have you tried another kit or perhaps gotten your LFS to test your Ca levels to confirm that the reading is accurate?
How are you currently supplementing Ca/Alk?

 

[jsteel]

lights are on at noon, i test 8-9pm.

iv'e tested with more than one kit, not by an Lfs yet. all the same.


that's the thing, i don't dose calcium! i was using b-ionic but when the levels came back that high i stopped dosing calcium; but that was two months ago.

maintaining Alk is a constant struggle, ive had it a 11.5 only to drop to 8 the next day.

more disconcerting is if 8.1 isn't low, and calcium level is potenially false, then why does nothing grow.

 

[Anonymous]

Are you talking about PH or Alk?

PH 8.1 is good.

Alk 8.1 DKH is good as well.
_________________
Honda Legend

 

[ChrisRD]

Have you checked your magnesium level?
Have you tested parameters in your new batches of saltwater?
How often do you do water changes (and how large)?

 

[jsteel]

1. no, I haven't tested for Mag., i know I have to.

2. I switched salts under the advisement of someone i met who was selling me frags( excellent system). He told me a friend of his was using the same salt as me(crystal sea) and once he switched his tank took off. A combination of Oceanic (high CA low Alk)and IO(to add ALK). i know that seems like an indictator of the high CA levels but i had these problems before i switched salts.

water changes are done once a week 10%.

 

[ChrisRD]

I have to say I'm still suspicious about your Ca levels. Personally, I've never been able to maintain high Ca levels like that in a tank that has stony corals and coralline growth via 10% water changes alone.

How long has the tank been setup? Have you made any major changes lately (equipment, feeding, supplements, etc.)? How long have you been having the slow growth problem?

Are you having any problems with nuisance algaes? They can be an indicator of elevated phosphates (even though you won't get a reading on some test kits) which can definitely hinder coral growth - especially stony corals.

 

[jsteel]

as far as the calcium goes, it confuses me as well, but as i've stated before the sps and coralline growth are stunted by something that i can't get a handle on.

the tank has been set up for 2 years, quit disfuntionally i might add. the only major change was about four months ago, in an attempt to revive the system, i siphoned all the sand (about 3-4 inches) and went bare bottom. the slow growth has been since inception.

i do have some brown algae but not alot. it not anything i would call a problem, i couldn't say that i have none. one test (cheaper) reads between 0-3ppm. i have a salifert but i hate it because no matter what it always reads 25ppm, which is impossible given the conditions and the overall health of the tank. i also employ a phosphate reactor with rowaphos and have tested with salifert(reads 0). if i have "some" brown algae and like i said have the fuge with chaeto and a phosphate reactor, do you think i still have a problem? what else can i do?
i will attach a picture to give you an idea of the amount of nuisance algae i'm talking about.


i might have to clean this every two weeks, not everywhere, just in some high flow areas.

just a picture of the sump.

and here is the main tank. sorry, i haven't wiped the glass in a couple of days. very little brown stuff.

 

[MelanieF]

I'd also be interested on ideas for correcting this problem. I have a digital probe for pH on my tank and the pH dips to 7.85 overnight and gets up to 8.1 in the day. (pH readings are accurate per test kits and LFS) My calcium is at 580. The LFS told me to stop dosing part 2 of the B-Ionic and only dose part 1 which I've been doing for two weeks now and things just aren't leveling off. The pH adjusts up to 8.3-8.4 w/ the dosing but the next day it's low once again.

Unlike you, however, I have no sump. If there is no reasonable solution to this problem I may add a hang-on refugium with an opposite lighting schedule in an effort to avoid the night/day swings at least...

Tagging along...

 

[jsteel]

Melanie,

Where is your tank located? mine is the basement and someone turned me on to this article:


http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2...rhf/index.php#a

i tried opening the windows in the basement and blowing a fan in the room; i did notice a measureable increase in PH within a day or so.

 

[MelanieF]

Mine is in the livingroom and the windows in that room don't open as the previous tenants painted them all shut. :evil:

Now that the weather is getting warmer I may be able to open the rest of the windows in the house and see if it helps. Thanks.

 

[ChrisRD]

Elevated CO2 levels, poor aeration and decomposing organics are all common causes of low pH. If alk is not low, dosing a buffer won't do much for raising pH and can actually cause problems (may drive alk too high). A good skimmer, strong circulation and good husbandry can help minimize the aeration and organics issues, but elevated ambient CO2 levels can be a bit more tricky to deal with. Some people have gone as far as plumbing the air intake of their skimmer to pull from outdoors.

Jsteel, given your setup and assuming you're changing out the GFO regularly, I wouldn't expect phosphates to be a problem. IME it doesn't take much more than decent water quality, Ca/Mg/Alk and light to get coralline to grow (although IME it does grow slower under bright, white lighting like 10K halides vs. bluer dimmer lighting). Not sure what else to suggest other than maybe checking parameters on your salt mix to see if anything looks out of wack. If all is well with your saltwater I'd try a few large water changes to try getting things back on track.

 

[MelanieF]

So what would you suggest if Alk IS also low? I have good circulation, a skimmer, open top and maintain water changes so am thinking I have a different issue...

 

[ChrisRD]

If you have high Ca and low Alk you have an ionic imbalance and IMO a few large water changes are the best immediate solution (personally, I test parameters on any new batch of salt before using it).

Once things are back on track you could try dosing kalkwasser instead of using the 2-part as that will definitely raise pH and also supplements Ca/Alk in a balanced ratio.

I prefer dosing kalkwasser periodically through the night (and not during the day) with a pump + digital timer. This counteracts the natural nightime pH drop and tends to give me stable pH numbers around the clock.

HTH

 

[jay24k]

Calcium above 500 withou adding anything is imo really not possible if you have calcium dependent corals. I would try another test. I would also test your make up water. If your corals aren't growing, then either calcium is too high or phosphates are high. And by your algae growth, you have a nutrient/phosphate issue.

I had a ph of 7.8 for 3 or 4 months. As long as it is stable, I wouldn't worry. Mine now runs 8.1 consistently which I'd like higher but not stressing. I have amazing sps growth. I would not add any buffer as it does not fix the issue. A test you can do is to take water out in a glass and take it outside and stir it really good. If the ph goes up, then you have a higher concentration of co2 near your tank.

I would shoot for an alk of 8 to 9 personally.

Also I notice all the rock, if you don't have flow all around, the junk will pile up and then decay causing nutrients.

 

[jsteel]

the calcium in the salt is definitely high. the last couple of days i've been using Randy's alk mix of baking soda and so far it has been successfully keeping the alk up around 10-11dkh.

as far as phosphate goes, i've got the phos. reactor with 250ml of rowaphos, a nice amount of chaeto and razor caulpera, ro/di: just changed guts, tested fresh water and makeup salt water with salifert.
no phosphates. if my test isn't good enough then what do you recommend?
i guess what i'm asking is if i don't feed, no phosphates in the top off or water changes and all the filtration i mentioned, then where is the nutrient problem coming from?
it is hard to tell in the photo but there is plenty of room between rocks and bottom and each other, also alot of flow(wave2k and mj1200)behind the rock work. all of the detritus blows to the left front corner where it can be easily siphoned.

 

[MelanieF]

jsteel, Do you have any inhabitants in there that you haven't seen lately?

I had a minor brown diatom issue when some snails died off that I got on Ebay...

 

[jsteel]

honestly, i'm sure that i've had some death of snails. they always seem to be caught in something or stuck upside down in the overflow where i can't get to them. maybe that's it; just hard to imagine since we are only talking about 5-10 dead in three months. nothing else though.

i'm going to hook up my kalk reactor again given it's ability to bind phosphates and just monitor the calcium and phosphates very closely.

 

[jay24k]

Diatoms should go away eventually. Some tanks are just odd. A friend has a tank who can't get rid of hair algae.

He barely feeds, run chaeto, a big phosban reactor, and shows no phosphates and also has ro/di water. It's just one of those odd things. He has the exact setup as me except Tunzes. He has twice the water flow I have. The only difference is he has different rock. I sometimes wonder if rock that is enriched or phosphate soaked would leach out in a phosphate lower enviroment.

A phosphate kit is almost useless imo because as soon as there is any in the tank, the algae will consume it and grow.

 

[jsteel]

So what you're saying is that i should monitor almost purely by the brown stuff? is it actually feasible to expect no nuisance stuff what so ever?