5 Gallon Nano tank

[tinyreef]

i think the pH has to be the wrong reading (altho the ca/alk do look weird as well).

sky, i thought your process (as described in the nano forum) generates significant carbon dioxide? the pH should be struggling to be at 8.2 let alone 8.4.

 

[Anonymous]

Cycling is when the populations of bacteria on solid surfaces in the tank reach levels sufficient to process waste in the tank.

You are correct on the above.

The reason your ammonia level read 0 on day 1 is most likely because you simply hadn't built up any ammonia yet. However, you will.

I can understand on day 1 with two fish, but how do you explain on day 8 with 4 fish ammonia still read zero? I feed the fish everyday and they poo a lot.

The carbon in the filter is doing its job.

The main problem I see with that tank is that there is no matrix for the bacteria to grow on. There's really nothing to cycle. It could do ok though, if you do very regular water changes and refesh the carbon in your filter frequently.

No matrix? What about the carbon inside the bubble filter, don't bacteria grow on those? And yes I agree regular water change and clean the carbon would help maintain water quality.

Yes, sure. It just doesn't look like a very high volume of surface area to me.

 

[skylab1]

i think the pH has to be the wrong reading (altho the ca/alk do look weird as well).

sky, i thought your process (as described in the nano forum) generates significant carbon dioxide? the pH should be struggling to be at 8.2 let alone 8.4.

Yes, it does generates significant CO2. The bubbling from the air pump give an boiling effect on the surface of the water, this effect driven off the CO2 and the space left behind is replace by O2. On a larger tank the return from pump or sump is place above the water not under like regular setup, the splash of the water has the same effect as the bubbling from a air pump. Notice I did not use an air stone with the bubble filter.

The entire reading look weird, that's what everyone says. The number shouldn't be there but it does, I just do the test and report the reading.

Again, that is why I am doing this. I setup tank after tanks, the results are the same every time. People keep telling me this won't work, but it does. I guess you can call it weird science.

 

[Anonymous]

Just a small point; it's the idea that O2 can replace the CO2 in it "space" is not correct.

 

[Anonymous]

I had a thought that could explain the seemingly impossible readings - a huge amount of Borate could push ALK past 11 dKH without causing any Calcium carbonate precipitation. It would also explain the High PH in the presence of CO2.

 

[Anonymous]

Guy, thank you for your explaination. You seem to know a lot of this stuff what do you do for living if you don't mind I asking?

I know enough to know that there is more I don't know in this hobby than I do know. :lol:

Dr. Holmes-Farley has written a huge amount of helpful articles on the chemical side of the hobby. I really enjoy reading his stuff because it's written to be understood by hobbiests.

For a living? I'm an I.T. Data Architect for one of the world's largest banks. Totally removed from this hobby :lol:

 

[skylab1]

Just a small point; it's the idea that O2 can replace the CO2 in it "space" is not correct.

How so?

 

[skylab1]

For a living? I'm an I.T. Data Architect for one of the world's largest banks. Totally removed from this hobby :lol:

Me too, I am the I.T. computer field as well. :wink:

 

[skylab1]

I had a thought that could explain the seemingly impossible readings - a huge amount of Borate could push ALK past 11 dKH without causing any Calcium carbonate precipitation. It would also explain the High PH in the presence of CO2.

I am not sure Borate has anything to do with the result I am seeing, at lest it wasn't mentioned when it was explained to me how it works. Here is the answer I got from Bill when I ask him about the perecipitaton issue you raised.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calcium in the aquarium is usually introduced by three methods,
1. A calcium reactor which employs Carbonic acid,
2. Chack water Kassvasser is the german for it CaOH
3. CaCl.

If you use any of these methods an you attempt to go above the gods warning of 500 mg/L SNOW will happen in your aquarium. (Oh Boy a SNOW BALL FIGHT) The reason is as follows.

You are dealing with THREE things which are affected, Ca levels, Ak levels and pH levels. Everyone believes they are independent, and usually they are, but again after 11 years of mistakes I found another path but you will have to torture me.

When you use CaCl in your sistem to elevate the Ca value in your tank. then you must balance it with the amount of corbanates in the tank. These can also be BiCarbs (We have lots of Bicarbs in California) So if you have too much Carbonates in your water, the CaCl will drop the Cl from the Ca and attach to the CO3 which in this case will make CaCO3. (You in the back, wake up and give me 50 push ups NOW!)

This is were the reaction happens. It also happens when you use Chalkwater because it's chemical formula is CaOH which means it has an Hydroyl. This is considered part of the Ak or buffering means in your water. When the OH is depleated then the Ca remains and like all good substances readly combines with the CO3 in the water and makes again CaCO3 and then drops out in the water.

In a Calcium reactor the carbonic acid reacts with the Ca in the form it is tied up in. As you are very well aware, coral sand does contain CaCO3 but because it is in the morph stage, it is very hard for it to react. So you have liberated the Ca which elevates the Ca but with the amount of acid produced and the long resident time, it destorys the CO3 because the pH is about 4.5 in the chamber and thus totally **** can's it. (the last is a very pronounced term in science as you well noticed.

In our system we are starting with a rock that contains not only CaCO3 but as mentione before hand other carbonates. Now when the system reactes with the pH rock, unlike the other system, the CO3 is not destoryed but liberated along with the Ca (this also is happening iwth Mg and Mn at the same time) Thus the CO3 is not free floating but does in fact elevate the pH, Ca (and other values) and the buffering capacity of the tank at the same time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this helps.

 

[Anonymous]

Just a small point; it's the idea that O2 can replace the CO2 in it "space" is not correct.

How so?

Just the idea that adding O2 drives out CO2, or vice versa. Their levels in the water aren't connected in that way.

 

[Anonymous]

Here is the answer I got from Bill when I ask him about the perecipitaton issue you raised.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calcium in the aquarium is usually introduced by three methods,
1. A calcium reactor which employs Carbonic acid,
2. Chack water Kassvasser is the german for it CaOH
3. CaCl.

If you use any of these methods an you attempt to go above the gods warning of 500 mg/L SNOW will happen in your aquarium. (Oh Boy a SNOW BALL FIGHT) The reason is as follows.

You are dealing with THREE things which are affected, Ca levels, Ak levels and pH levels. Everyone believes they are independent, and usually they are, but again after 11 years of mistakes I found another path but you will have to torture me.

When you use CaCl in your sistem to elevate the Ca value in your tank. then you must balance it with the amount of corbanates in the tank. These can also be BiCarbs (We have lots of Bicarbs in California) So if you have too much Carbonates in your water, the CaCl will drop the Cl from the Ca and attach to the CO3 which in this case will make CaCO3. (You in the back, wake up and give me 50 push ups NOW!)

This is were the reaction happens. It also happens when you use Chalkwater because it's chemical formula is CaOH which means it has an Hydroyl. This is considered part of the Ak or buffering means in your water. When the OH is depleated then the Ca remains and like all good substances readly combines with the CO3 in the water and makes again CaCO3 and then drops out in the water.

In a Calcium reactor the carbonic acid reacts with the Ca in the form it is tied up in. As you are very well aware, coral sand does contain CaCO3 but because it is in the morph stage, it is very hard for it to react. So you have liberated the Ca which elevates the Ca but with the amount of acid produced and the long resident time, it destorys the CO3 because the pH is about 4.5 in the chamber and thus totally crap can's it. (the last is a very pronounced term in science as you well noticed.

In our system we are starting with a rock that contains not only CaCO3 but as mentione before hand other carbonates. Now when the system reactes with the pH rock, unlike the other system, the CO3 is not destoryed but liberated along with the Ca (this also is happening iwth Mg and Mn at the same time) Thus the CO3 is not free floating but does in fact elevate the pH, Ca (and other values) and the buffering capacity of the tank at the same time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this helps.

Sorry Bill, I can't agree with even one of the paragraphs in your response. There are to many errors to even start.

Guy

 

[skylab1]

Just the idea that adding O2 drives out CO2, or vice versa. Their levels in the water aren't connected in that way.

Ok, if the O2 does not replace the CO2, why is the DO (dissolve oxygen) so high in these systems and the CO2 is so low? Also why does the waste water treatment plants also blowing off the CO2 by top areation to elevate the DO? This has been known since the early 1930's in Los Angels in the Waste water treatment plants.

Also the O2 is not added to the water to drives out CO2, we don't pump O2 to the water and drives off CO2. The CO2 escape the water by top areation, the "space" left behind is then fill by fresh air which contain O2. Where do you think in the ocean, pund, river gets most of their gas exchange from? They gets from the surface not from the bottom.

I hope this make sence for you.

 

[skylab1]

Sorry Bill, I can't agree with even one of the paragraphs in your response. There are to many errors to even start.

Guy

Guy, if the response from Bill is error then how do you explain I don't have any perecipitation in my demo tank as you pointed out?

And how fast will this perecipitation occure in your opinion.

 

[skylab1]

Also, Guy I don't want to take too much of your time. If you have the time later, it would be great if you can pin point the error in Bills response. Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Just the idea that adding O2 drives out CO2, or vice versa. Their levels in the water aren't connected in that way.

Ok, if the O2 does not replace the CO2, why is the DO (dissolve oxygen) so high in these systems and the CO2 is so low? Also why does the waste water treatment plants also blowing off the CO2 by top areation to elevate the DO? This has been known since the early 1930's in Los Angels in the Waste water treatment plants.

Also the O2 is not added to the water to drives out CO2, we don't pump O2 to the water and drives off CO2. The CO2 escape the water by top areation, the "space" left behind is then fill by fresh air which contain O2. Where do you think in the ocean, pund, river gets most of their gas exchange from? They gets from the surface not from the bottom.

I hope this make sence for you.

The end result may be identical to what you're thinking but the cause & effect are different.

If DO in the water is less than the O2 content of the air above the tank then O2 will enter the water. Surface agitation, bubbles, fans, etc. just speed up the process.

Of CO2 levels in the water are higher than the air then CO2 will leave the water. Surface agitation, bubbles, fans, etc. just speed up the process.

This is classic osmosis. The amount of O2 entering the water has nothing to do with the CO2 leaving the water, that just happen at the same time when CO2 is high and O2 is low.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry Bill, I can't agree with even one of the paragraphs in your response. There are to many errors to even start.

Guy

Guy, if the response from Bill is error then how do you explain I don't have any perecipitation in my demo tank as you pointed out?

And how fast will this perecipitation occure in your opinion.

As I stated before, probably erroneous test results or possibly high Borate levels.

The reaction at the levels you posted should happen in minutes in my experience. If there's a chemist on board then they could certainly give a more precise answer.

 

[tinyreef]

In our system we are starting with a rock that contains not only CaCO3 but as mentione before hand other carbonates.

Now when the system reactes with the pH rock, unlike the other system, the CO3 is not destoryed but liberated along with the Ca (this also is happening iwth Mg and Mn at the same time)

Thus the CO3 is not free floating but does in fact elevate the pH, Ca (and other values) and the buffering capacity of the tank at the same time.

not to be a noodge but why isn't it "destroyed" like the other system (i.e. calcium reactor)? just saying so doesn't make it so, that's just describing the event not explaining it.

i kinda know the CO3- process but i think you're missing a step here to explain why the liberated CO3- from your process doesn't suffer the same fate as the CO3- (as you describe) in the other system if acids are at work in both systems. i.e. carbonic acid form the CO2 injection in the reactor and (i guess) bacterial-produced acid in yours.

unless there's different mechanics at work here, which is what i was thinking, that you've left a step out.

 

[Anonymous]

Also, Guy I don't want to take too much of your time. If you have the time later, it would be great if you can pin point the error in Bills response. Thanks

I suppose I shouldn't be allowed to just say it's all wrong without a real response.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calcium in the aquarium is usually introduced by three methods,
1. A calcium reactor which employs Carbonic acid,
2. Chack water Kassvasser is the german for it CaOH
3. CaCl.

If you use any of these methods an you attempt to go above the gods warning of 500 mg/L SNOW will happen in your aquarium. (Oh Boy a SNOW BALL FIGHT) The reason is as follows.

500ppm isn't a magic number. If ALK and PH are normal then 500ppm isn't that high. As I stated earlier the maximum amount of Calcium saltwater can hold mostly depends on temp, Carbonate, PH, and Magnesium. It's not possible to have them all super high in a healthy reef tank.

You are dealing with THREE things which are affected, Ca levels, Ak levels and pH levels. Everyone believes they are independent, and usually they are, but again after 11 years of mistakes I found another path but you will have to torture me.

They are not independent and not everyone believes they are.

When you use CaCl in your sistem to elevate the Ca value in your tank. then you must balance it with the amount of corbanates in the tank. These can also be BiCarbs (We have lots of Bicarbs in California) So if you have too much Carbonates in your water, the CaCl will drop the Cl from the Ca and attach to the CO3 which in this case will make CaCO3. (You in the back, wake up and give me 50 push ups NOW!)

CaCl (Calcium chloride) dissolves in water and the Calcium Ion disassociates at that time. It has nothing to do with "amount of corbanates in the tank". In other words the Calcium ions in our tanks are free ions for the most part, some with have a weak bond with Sulfate but not with Cloride. This is true regardlass of what the original source of the Calcium was. A Ca++ ion is a Ca++ ion and cannot be distinguished from Ca++ from a reactor, limewater, Calcium chloride, Magnesium chloride, etc.

This is were the reaction happens. It also happens when you use Chalkwater because it's chemical formula is CaOH which means it has an Hydroyl. This is considered part of the Ak or buffering means in your water. When the OH is depleated then the Ca remains and like all good substances readly combines with the CO3 in the water and makes again CaCO3 and then drops out in the water.

Limewater is not CaOH. Ca(OH)2 is Hydrated Lime known in the hobby as kalk. When you mix it with fresh water you get Ca++ and OH- in solution. When you add the solution to saltwater you get Ca++ and the OH- combines with CO2 to form HCO3- (Bicarbonate) or possibly CO3-- (Carbonate) if there's a shortage of CO2.

The OH does not get depleted, it gets converted to Bicarbonate. The Ca++ looks just like any other Ca++ and is no more or less likely to combine with Carbonate than any other Ca++.

In a Calcium reactor the carbonic acid reacts with the Ca in the form it is tied up in. As you are very well aware, coral sand does contain CaCO3 but because it is in the morph stage, it is very hard for it to react. So you have liberated the Ca which elevates the Ca but with the amount of acid produced and the long resident time, it destorys the CO3 because the pH is about 4.5 in the chamber and thus totally crap can's it. (the last is a very pronounced term in science as you well noticed.

By morph stage I assume he means Aragonite. I've never heard it called morph stage. Acid isn't produced when you liberate the Ca in a reactor, the reactor uses acid (Carbon dioxide) to liberate the Ca. This process does not destroy CO3, it also liberates CO3 and certainly doesn't "crap can" it. The end result is Ca++ and HCO3-.

In our system we are starting with a rock that contains not only CaCO3 but as mentione before hand other carbonates. Now when the system reactes with the pH rock, unlike the other system, the CO3 is not destoryed but liberated along with the Ca (this also is happening iwth Mg and Mn at the same time) Thus the CO3 is not free floating but does in fact elevate the pH, Ca (and other values) and the buffering capacity of the tank at the same time.

If the rock contains CaCO3 then nothing will be liberated from it unless PH, Calcium, or Carbonate levels are very low. I don't know what the rock has in it but CaCO3 is not the active ingredient unles there is a localized low PH zone around the rock (possible). He states the CO3 will not be free floating - well, if it's going to contribute to Alkalinity it will have to be free floating. I don't believe there's a magic type of Carbonate that doesn't react with Calcium when levels are too high. Just like Calcium, CO3- is the same CO3- no matter how it happened to get into solution.

 

[skylab1]

Guy, I am going to have Bill address your answer directly. I am not a chemist so this is way out of my leagues here.

 

[Anonymous]

If there are Chemists in the house I will defer to their opinions. I'm certainly not a chemist but I have read quite a bit about how my reef works.