5 Gallon Nano tank

[skylab1]

I will follow this thread for pictorial updates. Hopefully skylab will be kind enough to keep up the tank updates over the course of several months to a year. Photographic evidence should testify to the validity of this "new science" (which has yet to be explained).

skylab, do you understand how this process works? Can you explain the workings of this product or are you following Snake's advice blindly? If you can, I (and I am sure others) have questions for you regarding this "new science."

Len, I got to go to a meetting now. I'll be back later to answer your question.

 

[FragMaster]

Wait a minute...............

Wasnt the main factor in this thing that fact that water changes were a thing of the past so to speak?

Where did you get that idea from?

From Snake, and you stating that all levels would stabelize ( which to me means no water changes if nothing is present on any test kits, and the PH rock releases essential elements and buffers ph).
and from their web site stating thier is no need for a water change after the 1st cycle. I aksed for proof of what it calims to do or for a link to
point me to ask a "customer" about it. I asked if nothing else to posts a link where we could buy it.
I got the MAAST link and a customer link, but not the manufacturer link.
I looked up the rest on my own once I had the true names of the products.
They are all made by one company. Which makes me think "Snake" could be a "snake-oil" salse man since he already stated he developed it, but would not produce proof in the way of physical evidence.
Although I seem harsh, I am realy on a fact finding expedition only.
Not to make you ( skylab) personaly look like a dweeb or a bad guy.
:wink:

First of all I am not a beginners like you, and second I know more/understand the basic on fish tank than most of you. Third, the point of this to give beginners (like yourself) a option to do things differently. You don't have to like it, but don't attack it just because you don't understand it, afarid, or just don't like it.

This is the main problem of the industry, and you all wondering if this system is so good why isn't more people using it. With all due respect Mihai, it is becaues people like you who would shut it down just because you say it doesn't work.

I see many of the comments here are saying "this tank is due to fail", "its doomed", "it will crash". Frankly, all this time I've been keeping fish, fresh or salt I never once had a tank crash on me. I can't understand how in the world can you crash a tank in the first place without throw a rock at it. Then again what do I know right?[/

That last paraghraph says it all.

 

[bookfish]

Whether or not this works is academic to me. Any product line presented in such a heavy handed, unclear and biased manner is immediately called into question. If it works so well, we will all hear about it in many ways from many credible sources and we'll all be using it shortly. Also, I find it hard to believe that any products and/or approaches don't have ANY downsides as has been claimed. This is all I have to say and I won't reply to this thread so don't bother denouncing me as an "unbeliever" since I won't bother defending my position.-Jim

 

[skylab1]

From Snake, and you stating that all levels would stabelize ( which to me means no water changes if nothing is present on any test kits, and the PH rock releases essential elements and buffers ph).
and from their web site stating thier is no need for a water change after the 1st cycle. I aksed for proof of what it calims to do or for a link to
point me to ask a "customer" about it. I asked if nothing else to posts a link where we could buy it.
I got the MAAST link and a customer link, but not the manufacturer link.
I looked up the rest on my own once I had the true names of the products.
They are all made by one company. Which makes me think "Snake" could be a "snake-oil" salse man since he already stated he developed it, but would not produce proof in the way of physical evidence.

You asked for customer and where to buy link not a manufacture link.
Water change, snake already answer that on the other thread, no need to repeat the same thing.

He has a right to his product, I don't make it I can't tell him what to do.

 

[FragMaster]

I know guy, I was just keeping up with the thread.
I had asked snake for a link and such and you posted it.

 

[skylab1]

I will follow this thread for pictorial updates. Hopefully skylab will be kind enough to keep up the tank updates over the course of several months to a year. Photographic evidence should testify to the validity of this "new science" (which has yet to be explained).

I do intend to keep up with the updates, as soon as I get my digital camera back I'll post more pictures.

skylab, do you understand how this process works? Can you explain the workings of this product or are you following Snake's advice blindly? If you can, I (and I am sure others) have questions for you regarding this "new science."

First of all, I do not blindly follow Snake advice; I ask questions just like you. I understand the basics, 100% - No. Do I need to know it 100%? No, not really. As long as it works my customers are happy, I am happy, that's all it matters. Most of my customer who use skimmer don't have a clue how the simmer really works, do they care to know? No. When they see a black and nasty thing in the collection cup, hey, its working and they are happy. I have no reason to doubt Snake's process doesn't work, everything he has told me it has work as he say it would, when I follow the instructions correctly.

I work full time and I do tank maintenance & setup in the weekend. I have a small warehouse were I keep all the equipments and some live stock. My fish holding system was setup just like any other store, sump, wet/dry, skimmer, UV all the usual stuff. I cycle the system like any system: slow, it took about 4 weeks to cycle the whole system. Yet, after 6 months I was having a high death rate and I couldn't figure out why. Then I found out by taking to other shop owners most LFS are having the same problems and so as the whosale/importer. By chance one of my drygoods vender told me about a new carbon they were testing, and they recommand me to try it. The new carbon was the Tri-base carbon, so I contact the HDL that's when I found out about this new process, that was over a year ago. I purchase enough carbon, ph rock and bacteria. I converted my entire fish system to the new system in one shot. The very next day I came in and check on the system, there were NO dead fish in any of the tanks were normally they would be. The first week my death lose has drop form an average 30% down to less then 1%, I lost just 1 damsel in the first week that was all.

The next thing I did: I just got in 2 boxes of LR which need to be cured. I have a 40 gallon tank for live rock, usally I have two damsels in it to show people the LR in tank are fully cured. As you know how bad the water would get when cureing new LR, normally I would remove the fish so the curing process don't kill them. I was shock when Snake ask me to leave the fish in the tank during the curing process, I told him the fish will never survived! Anyway, I did what he sugguested, I added all the LR to the tank, I was using a Aqua clear 110 hand on the back filter filled with 2lb of tri-base carbon. I took the skimmer off line. Put in a large air pump and added bacteria. The ammonia level in the tank when from 0 to toxic in just 30 minutes, it was nasty and stink after that I went home; on my way home I was thinking, those fish are DEAD. I came in the next afternoon after I get off work, I went to check the LR tank. The water still kind of cloudy and I can't find the damsels, after 5 minutes I finally spot the fish and they are still ALIVE! I can't believe they survive the night. After 3 days, the ammonia has drop down to about .5 according to the test kit and the two damsel still there. On the fifth day reading on the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all 0s. The LR was cured and no lost of fish.

So you see I don't need scientific data to tell me this process works or don't work. I have seem it with my own eyes, I have tried, and it work just like the man say it would(without killing fish); because if it didn't I wouldn't be here to talk about it.

I am not sugguesting everyone should jump in and do this, this is my personal experence using the product and it's process. I need an answer to solve a problem and this "new science" has provided me with a working solution and continue to work untill this day.

 

[Len]

In my opinion, one of the more unbelieavable aspects of you and Snake's success stories is that you both believe that nitrogeneous products are the top killer of fish in holding tanks and captivity. Add Tri Base carbon and bacteria and deaths stop overnight, seemingly overcoming shipping stress, territorial stress, physical trauma, jumping fish (a lot of people in the Industry mention this as one of the top killers), etc.

And still no pictures of a healthy "new science" tank.

I think you can appreciate my skepticism.

 

[skylab1]

In my opinion, one of the more unbelieavable aspects of you and Snake's success stories is that you both believe that nitrogeneous products are the top killer of fish in holding tanks and captivity. Add Tri Base carbon and bacteria and deaths stop overnight, seemingly overcoming shipping stress, territorial stress, physical trauma, jumping fish (a lot of people in the Industry mention this as one of the top killers), etc.

And still no pictures of a healthy "new science" tank.

I think you can appreciate my skepticism.

I do appreciate your skepticism, the more skeptic you are the better.

Nitrogeneous is not the only factor why fish die, shipping stress can be recover most of time with a clean healthy system.Territorial strss can be avoid from the beginning. Physical trauma, I don't buy fish that has physical trauma, that can be avoid as well. Jumping fish, cover the tank. You know why people in the industry mention jumping fish is one of the top killers? That's because they put fish in a little cubical, the fish has no were to go; so when they jump they are out of tank. I have no cubical in my holding system, I use only 60 gallon or larger tank. The fish are free swining just like your home aquarium, for as long as I've been doing this, I only lost 2 fish due to jumping out of tank, both time is because I forgot to cover the lid.

In this industry, most fish die within the first 48 hours after arrival. This is a fact. Most wholesale don't have clean system, fact#2. Fish arrive at the weekend, they acclimated to the system. Overnight, the bioload increase 100%, their system can't take the stress. When you added the shipping stress, possible phyical trauma, and a little cubical no wonder the fish die.
Monday morning, dead fish is removed, fish get purchase and ship out. As the week went on, the bioload decrease, fish death start to lower. And the whole cycle start again on Sunday.

LFS same thing, most LFS receive their shipment on Monday or Tuesday. LFS acclimated the new arrival to their system, bioload increase, death soon follow. 30% lost a week is accpeted number in this industry both wholsale and retail. One other thing, from the moment the fish is collected in the ocean by the oversea collecting station holding it there, shipping to the U.S and then ship again to the LFS. A period of 7-10 days the fish are not been feed once, now add all the possible stress plus a not so good system you got a dead fish in the making.

I will get some tank picture using this system, as soon as I receive it I'll post here.

Just my opinion: seeing a picture don't convince me, seeing it working in front of me does.

 

[Len]

I am hoping I can get some industry people in here, but your "facts" aren't what I know as facts. I've briefly worked in this industry and have been to countless wholesalers, and of course, retailers.

 

[Mihai]

Skylab, you crack me up. If you're not a beginner, you're worse. Much worse. However, out of respect for Len, I'll stop here. BTW, normal Alk is either 7-11dHK or 2.5-4 meq. 200 is way out of whack.

M.

 

[Anonymous]

BTW, normal Alk is either 7-11dHK or 2.5-4 meq. 200 is way out of whack.

M.

I think he's measuring in ppm so 200ppm is about 4 Meq/L.

 

[Anonymous]

Less talk, more pics!



BTW, I think you should get some laser lights too!

* Perfect for Fresh or Saltwater Fish!
* Improves the Color of Your Tropical Fish and Enhances Fin Growth!
* Increases the Life Span of Your Fish!
* Helps Reduce Bacteria and Infection by Purifying the Water!
* Increases the Incubation Rate of Eggs and Growth of Fry!
* Increases Disease Resistance!
* Creates an Aquarium Night Light of Unmatched Beauty!

 

[skylab1]

BTW, normal Alk is either 7-11dHK or 2.5-4 meq. 200 is way out of whack.

M.

I think he's measuring in ppm so 200ppm is about 4 Meq/L.

Guy is correct, the test kit is measuring in ppm as with most test kit sold in the market today.

 

[skylab1]

Skylab, you crack me up. If you're not a beginner, you're worse. Much worse. However, out of respect for Len, I'll stop here. BTW, normal Alk is either 7-11dHK or 2.5-4 meq. 200 is way out of whack.

M.

Mihai, out of respect for Len I am not even going to comment on what you wrote. Its clear to me you know jack about this hobby and the aquarium industry! BTW, 200 may be out of whack in your system, its perfectly normal in my.

 

[Len]

Please stop with the "out of respect for Len" business. It's the UA you guys all agreed to when registering. Keep it constructive and civil.

 

[skylab1]

I am hoping I can get some industry people in here, but your "facts" aren't what I know as facts. I've briefly worked in this industry and have been to countless wholesalers, and of course, retailers.

Len, I am not sure how forth coming will the industry people be specially on record, they are more likely to lookout for their business interest then yours.

I'll be shock if they actually admits on records for example: the death rate is some where close to 30% or more. I expect their offical death rate is around 10% or lower.

 

[Len]

On the topic, I forgot to ask you for references for you and Snake's reported facts. With what data are you guys coming to your conclusions re: mortality?

 

[tinyreef]

I am hoping I can get some industry people in here, but your "facts" aren't what I know as facts. I've briefly worked in this industry and have been to countless wholesalers, and of course, retailers.

Len, I am not sure how forth coming will the industry people be specially on record, they are more likely to lookout for their business interest then yours.

I'll be shock if they actually admits on records for example: the death rate is some where close to 30% or more. I expect their offical death rate is around 10% or lower.

why would they bother to hide a (relatively) small difference between 10% to 30%? just for good PR?

but if it was 10% versus 90% (as i've seen bandied about in the lively forum they have here :lol: ), that i could understand fudging the numbers for good PR.

does any gov't or NGO get involved if the numbers hit past a certain point? no, it's the transshipper's/wholesaler's/whatever's going-out-of-business sale as far as the rest of the world is concerned. the mechanisms of capitalism will grind those inefficient out of the business.

so far from what i've read on that thread len alluded to is that the industry peeps have noted jumping and stress as the leading causes. i'm sure ammonia contributes some but if that was a huge issue there are ammonia detox additives available.

basically, it doesn't seem like RN would/could contribute that significantly to lowering mortality at the distributor level as is being claimed. but maybe it could contribute more of a difference at the less-experienced retail level?

it seems to me that darkened tank walls would probably help limit stress at the distributor level more than RN would. it's just that those claims seem a bit far-fetched.

 

[FragMaster]

Well Skylab,
This is my take on it from the experience and knowledge that has been shared with me by many wholesaler's,and retailers.


They jump because they are freaked, period. Just like alot of fish in the ocean do when a predatory fish is closing in on them. Size of the holding tanks does play a role some what but a very small one. They are stressed from being caught up in a net and and whooshed out of thier home and in to a strange enviorment by what seems to them to be giants.
Thats why they make fish calmer for shipping and black out bags.
Thats also why you leave the lights off when adding new fish (most of the time). "Most" wholesaler's and retailer's do not cover thier tanks because they want to take atvantage of every available and least costly thing they can to help thier systems stay healthy. IE the gaseous exchange process.

"Fish arrive at the weekend" "most LFS receive their shipment on Monday or Tuesday" stick with one or the other.

Whosalers are usualy located directly at the source so there is NO shipping to them.
LFS I know of recieve thier shipments on tue. - fri. Not mon,and tues. If they recieved them on mon. or tues. that would mean they just spent possibly more than 48 hours in a bag in transit(friday,saturday,sunday, monday until tuesday delivery). If 30% loss was an aceptable standard
in retail standards then they would go belly up real quick.
If an LFS recieves two or more DOA fish specimens (and that depends GREATLY on what species of fish and its cost) they usualy call imediately to set up a free replacement with thier next order.

They also do not add them to the same tank, or one small system.
They have many tanks that are all linked (usualy) to two seperate systems. (usualy a california style plumbing set up with a huge sump and skimmer.)
With live rock and live sand in most of the holding tanks ( aka display tanks for retail) all linked together,combined with a huge sump and skimmer you essentialy have two big berlin filtration set ups that can handle just about anything if you keep good maitinance on them.
In fact I have seen several LFS set ups where two tanks side by side could by be bypassed from the main system ( or individualy isolated) by the turn of a ball valve, and the addition of a short section of pvc. Turning them into isolation tanks.

Wholesalers usualy use large holding tanks then transfer selected specimens to subdivided tanks for display or when getting ready to ship them off.

So assuming that most LFS just drop in huge bioloads in to $10,000-$20,000 systems that took months to set up with $1000's worth of live stock at steak as well, is pretty naive.
BTW "most" wholesalers I have seen have the cleanest systems I have ever saw, with fresh seawater piped through them. Does it realy make any sense to threaten your own lively hood with filthy systems?

 

[Anonymous]

Can someone sum up the 'method' for me - like an elevator pitch.

Almost without fail, the longer the explanation the less likely the thing actually does what it is said to do, so I don't want to be biased by reading explanations I am already primed to reject.

Thanks!