5 Gallon Nano tank

[Anonymous]

Here ya go Righty


Take a small tank
Add some RN
Add some Tri something carbon in a canister filter
Add a PH rock

Add a kajillion fish

ENJOY!

 

[FragMaster]

Here is the makers website with a full description (of somthing any ways).
http://www.hdltd.com/products/p_tribase.html

 

[Anonymous]

That is the kind of site that screams to me 'snake oil'. Over explanation, lots of trigger words. I would like an elevator pitch.

 

[FragMaster]

I know man. That is the 1st thing I thought of when I read all of the descriptions. It's sort of like AMWAY ya know. Baits you in, demands your attention with riches, then hands you a box of soap and sends you off door to door!

 

[skylab1]

On the topic, I forgot to ask you for references for you and Snake's reported facts. With what data are you guys coming to your conclusions re: mortality?

I don't know about Snake's you have to ask him. My is by talking to the people who work at the whosale and retail store.

The manager level people won't tell you anything unless you are a big account or you know them very well. People who work the warehouse are mush more easy to talk too, those are the people who pack your items, answer your questions. After a while you get to know them very well, they'll tell things you won't believe what's been going on behind the scene. One time I ask the head guy who is in charge the livestock for the largest whosale next LAX, point blank "what is your death rate a week?" 20-25% average is his answer. I have no reason not to believe him, casue I see a guy walking around the tanks holding a bucket netting dead fish out of the holding tank. By the time he was done the bucket were full of dead fish, this was 9 am Monday morning. Monday usually has the highest death lost, as the week goes on the death rate drops. By Friday very little dead fish, most of the stock were all sold the bio load is very lite.

Monday morninig is the best time to go, you go in right when the whosale are open around 7:30am, you'll see a guy holding a bucket netting dead fish out of the tanks. This happend every morning, they get most the dead fish out of the tank fast so when local retailer came in they don't see a lots of dead fish in the tank. If you go past 8:30 you won't see very much by then the tank are pretty much clean out.

High Bright USA is a whosale in Gardena, their death rate not counting DOA is about 5% a week sometime even lower then 5%. Why? Because they are using the Haitt system (you know the system everyone say it doesn't work) in their holding tank, I purchase most my stock from them because I know they have a clean system. BTW, they still use a skimmer on their line; the boss have complained many times about the skimmer not working very well, I wonder why?

 

[skylab1]

why would they bother to hide a (relatively) small difference between 10% to 30%? just for good PR?

Yes, they are. 10-30% is a big difference. When the fish dies they don't just lost on the cost of the fish, they lost on shipping as well. Who ever say whosale don't have to pay shipping don't know this business at all.
All that lost will have to recover some how and care to guess how they recover their lost?

so far from what i've read on that thread len alluded to is that the industry peeps have noted jumping and stress as the leading causes. i'm sure ammonia contributes some but if that was a huge issue there are ammonia detox additives available.

What people don't realize is ammonia is the leading cause why fish dies, when you add the stress that just make it even worse.

it seems to me that darkened tank walls would probably help limit stress at the distributor level more than RN would. it's just that those claims seem a bit far-fetched.

Darkened the tank walls may help limit stress, but at whosale they don't darkened their tank walls. So there goes that.

 

[skylab1]

"Most" wholesaler's and retailer's do not cover thier tanks because they want to take atvantage of every available and least costly thing they can to help thier systems stay healthy. IE the gaseous exchange process.

Really? I didn't know that. Let me ask you this, where do you think the gaseous exchange process occur in their tank? Surface, middle or bottom of the tank?

"Fish arrive at the weekend"

Whosale

"most LFS receive their shipment on Monday or Tuesday"

Retail

Whosalers are usualy located directly at the source so there is NO shipping to them

Just on this statement alone, that prove to me you know nothing about this business. Let me ask you this, who pays the airline to transport the cargo from oversea to the U.S.? Somebody has to pay for shipping who does?

LFS I know of recieve thier shipments on tue. - fri. Not mon,and tues. If they recieved them on mon. or tues. that would mean they just spent possibly more than 48 hours in a bag in transit(friday,saturday,sunday, monday until tuesday delivery). If 30% loss was an aceptable standard
in retail standards then they would go belly up real quick.
If an LFS recieves two or more DOA fish specimens (and that depends GREATLY on what species of fish and its cost) they usualy call imediately to set up a free replacement with thier next order.

There are whosale who open on Sunday, so they ship on Sunday as well. There for, the LFS will get their shipment on Monday. 48 hours is possible if LFS order their stock via transship but that does happend offen. 24-36 hours on transship is more likely.

Wholesalers usualy use large holding tanks then transfer selected specimens to subdivided tanks for display or when getting ready to ship them off.

No they do not, most fish are in cubicals. They don't transfer fish to different tanks for display or shipping. The tank the fish gets put in is where they'll stay until they are sold or die.

BTW "most" wholesalers I have seen have the cleanest systems I have ever saw, with fresh seawater piped through them. Does it realy make any sense to threaten your own lively hood with filthy systems?

I don't which wholesale you went, clearly you haven't see anything yet.

BTW, since you know so much about wholesale, did you know the shipping water they use to pack the fish for shipping are not the same water as in the holding tank?

 

[Anonymous]

Do what?

 

[FragMaster]

You are a virtual plethora of missinformation, and apreantly have no real concept as to how anyhting works in your own tank let alone in this industry my friend.



BTW: gaseous exchange ( as in oxygen exchange) happens on the surface.

"Just on this statement alone, that prove to me you know nothing about this business. Let me ask you this, who pays the airline to transport the cargo from oversea to the U.S.? Somebody has to pay for shipping who does?"

That would be the retailer who buys it from the wholesaler over seas.

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:


The two of you are cracking me up!


You may continue......

 

[Anonymous]

BTW: gas exchange happens on the surface

Actually, (in most setups) the majority of it will probably happen in the overflow tube and in the skimmer body where there will be more water/air contact occuring. -- It all depends on the setup though, of course.



BTW - In case it wasn't obvious enough yet, I'm TOTALLY with Knucklehead on this.

It's kinda like watching the young monkeys in the zoo fling poo at each other.

 

[tinyreef]

Yes, they are. 10-30% is a big difference. When the fish dies they don't just lost on the cost of the fish, they lost on shipping as well. Who ever say whosale don't have to pay shipping don't know this business at all.
All that lost will have to recover some how and care to guess how they recover their lost?

i understand the cost structure, my point was 30% isn't like 90%, i.e. catastrophic wipe-out. most or a significant amount of the cost (from what i've seen of pricing) is the shipping cost.

should they strive to lower the percentages constantly? sure, it makes good business sense, it adds directly to their margins.

but my original point is why would they falsify the difference? you yourself later on note a transshipper or distributor outright stated 20%~25%. it just didn't make sense to lie about a relatively small difference (again, relative imo) for no gain.

i'm working on/reasoning with the human nature factor here, i.e. there's no benefit to the lie you're claiming. insurance claims? you'd claim more. the only thing left would be the PR or CYA, but the boss will usually see the impact on the margins after a couple of shipments so i'm left with the PR possibility.

What people don't realize is ammonia is the leading cause why fish dies, when you add the stress that just make it even worse.

that remains to be seen from the industry people. i'm sure it's a significant contributor but so could cyanide (now if that doesn't get the industry forum peeps in here nothing will! ).

 

[Anonymous]

Stop the poo flinging. Stop the insults and stop the slights. Just stop it. You guys know this and I am getting tired of sending the same people pms about it, reading apologies, and them having it happen again.

Your opinions are fine. Expressing them is fine. The way some of you are choosing to express them is not.

 

[Anonymous]

BTW, since you know so much about wholesale, did you know the shipping water they use to pack the fish for shipping are not the same water as in the holding tank?

:?: :?: :?:
News to me. Every time I've watched them bag a fish it's with the same water from the holding tank.

 

[Anonymous]

BTW, since you know so much about wholesale, did you know the shipping water they use to pack the fish for shipping are not the same water as in the holding tank?

:?: :?: :?:
News to me. Every time I've watched them bag a fish it's with the same water from the holding tank.

I think both sides telling us dogmatically 'how it is' are just wrong.
I have seen both holding water shipped and different water shipped.
If everyone in the industry did everything the same way, it would be a much more controllable industry.

 

[Anonymous]

I should have added the caveat that I've been to a whopping 3 wholesalers. :lol:

What is the thinking with using different water? Isn't that a shock to the fish?

 

[Anonymous]

Some of the thinking is that the cleaner water is better than the holding water, even with the shock.
Another idea is that they can run airstones in the packing water to 'super aerate' it. Though if they are packing with 02, I don't think it makes a difference.
Another idea is to 'super aerate' holding water in separate containers for shipping.

Beats me. I wouldn't ship in different water than the animals are held in, however there may be other reasons that I am not aware of.

 

[Len]

skylab,

Here's the main problem I have with your conclusions: You are attributing causation without data or support. You think fish die at wholesalers because of nitrogenous shock but you have no data supporting this statement. I contend wholesalers experience high mortality rates mostly because they are on the front line receiving specimens that have undergone the most arduous part of their journey. No "new science" bacteria or special carbon will fix this.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Mondays are the best day to go to wholesalers. I am guessing this is based on your inaccurate belief that wholesalers receive most of their shipments on the weekend. The reality is they receive most days of the week depending on where the shipment is arriving from and their schedule. Call up major wholesalers in the LA area like SDC, All Seas, Quality, WSI, Underwater World, etc. And most LFS in my area receive shipments on Wednesday or Thursday (for whatever reason, I won't speculate). You make numerous errors during the course of your argument. You really need to stop presenting misinformation as fact.

May I ask if you are associated with Hiatt or Snake in any way? You seem to present the same sales pitch and examples as HDL.

 

[FragMaster]

I was not "telling it like it is".
Thats why the very begining of my post started with "this is my take on it".

He is talkng about Florida Caribbean wholesalers more than likely. The vast majority of them ship out with seawater.

 

[Anonymous]

And most LFS in my area receive shipments on Wednesday or Thursday (for whatever reason, I won't speculate).

Usually it's due to the best coral shipments hitting the wholesalers on Tuesday and Wednesday, therefore getting the LFS a better fill rate of more quality/varied pieces if they order for Wednesday or Thursday arrival.

Peace,

Chip