5 Gallon Nano tank

[Bill S]

Len,

I thought I posted an answer to your questions.

As you can see from my first post, I've been in the hobby for 35 year. 8 years at a very large LFS, when this part of the hobby (saltwater), was just getting started.

To make a long story short, I was just putting together a new-to-me 215 when I got to talking to a LFS owner about this process. They have a 75g softie tank that's been running this system for about 9 months. They have a HOB skimmer, but it's not pulling much - but at nearly zero nitrates who cares!

Anyway, several days after I put rock into my tank, I dropped in and they had one torpedo available - these are new items. At that time, I was looking for skimmers, and was expecting to spend around $500. For just over that, I can get 3 torpedos. So, my thought was... what the heck. The timing was good - not perfect, I'd already paid someone to build me a sump & fuge... So, with a healthy amount of skepticism, I jumped in!

Day 14 (rock), Day 10 (carbon):

Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: <10

Just added 100 turbos, 100 blue legs, 100 nassarius, 15 ceriths. All doing well! I'll see if I can post some photos this weekend!

 

[Bill S]

hhh

 

[Bill S]

DId a full test today after adding 300 snails and crabs:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: <10
Phosphate: 0
Calcium: 360

Here are some pix (diatom growth has settled down)

 

[skylab1]

Unfortunately, I've been waiting since 1998 and it hasn't happened yet. Apart from the very small sample I was sent with which I performed the 5 gallon tank testing I mentioned, I've never found anyone else using the product. Let alone on a reef tank.

I've had a "wait-see" approach to Hiatt for 8 years now, and this lack of quantitive posts is making me think it's going to extend well past the decade mark at this rate.

How many years does the product need to be on the market before it stops being called "new science", anyway?

I am not sure what part of country you live in, with the rate of the tropedo filter is selling, it won't be long before you meet one.
Keep in mind, torpedo isn't the only filter that works with this system, small tank can use regular canister filter that's been sold in LFS.

I don't know what happened the last 8 years, I didn't start selling this product until very recently.

As for the "new science", this will always be called the "new science" until it is printed in the text book and even then it will still be call the "new science" because the original nitrogen cycle will always be teach first.

As you pointed out, not many people know about this yet, so as they learn it the first time it will be "new" to them, there for, you can call it a "new science".

 

[skylab1]

For starters, advising people to stock their aquariums hours after setting up the system.

That is not a bad advice when the system can support it. It is a bad advice when a system can't support it and fish start dying.

I'll continue to wait .... hopefully sooner, but realistically, I'm guessing later or never.

Here is the thing: there are all around you yet you won't even go see it or pickup a phone? They won't come to you, you have to go to them. Unless you are lucky just happend to stumble on one.

A few photos will do plenty of good - a lot more good then any of the circular discussions we've been having. All the different Featured Aquariums in Advanced Aquarist, for example, demonstrate the possible efficacy of various methods. For whatever reason, no such evidence exists for HLD's method. [/qoute]

Great, how can I get a reef tank using HDL's method to be featured in Advanced Aquarist? Or will it ever be consider it ?


There is nothing wrong with easy solutions. The question is if it works. No one has proven HLD's "solution" works. There's been countless other quick-fix, do-all products sold to unwitting hobbyists. Help us differeniate HLD's products from these snake oil.

 

[FragMaster]

Great, how can I get a reef tank using HDL's method to be featured in Advanced Aquarist? Or will it ever be consider it ?

Snake has already bosted it was suppose to be in a magazine.
Yet to be seen though. As well as a healthy reef tank using this method Yet to be seen.

That is not a bad advice when the system can support it. It is a bad advice when a system can't support it and fish start dying.

Even thier website says not to do it.
There is no system that will handle a full bioload on day one,day two or day three,especialy a large system.
At least not with coral and inverts. You lucked out not knowing a small tank will cycle MUCH faster with no rock and fish only. Even faster with a cyclying agent.
The only way around it is to use some old tank water and substrate from a mature system. Bout a 50/50mix and you can add fish and coral in it within two-three days with a very small cycle ( IN A SMALL TANK.)
You will still get a small algae bloom, and that method does NOT include fresh rock. You can add mature rock from a mature system but fresh rock will crash it, and cycle all over again.

Thats what gets me about this system. The rock is going to die off if its fresh. There will be no bacteria present on the substrate if its new,nore in the water is its fresh. RN bacteria Is a cycle enhancer by its own admition to seed the carbon bed.
The carbon dwelling bacteria may eat the nasties in the filter system but they will not survive on live rock or live sand as it breeds lower numbers of the needed bacteria they thrive on. (also taken from thier website and users of the product that also sell it).
so there is the mystery. How can it cycle your tank in 24 hours from a totaly fresh set up?
It cant. The cycle still has to take place.Seems to me this dosent cure the problem it only subdues the sypmtoms as the needed bcterium grow on your live rock and sand. Without this kind of bacteria coral, and fish simply will not survive. There is more to balance out then just controlling trates and amonia spikes.

Here is the thing: there are all around you yet you won't even go see it or pickup a phone? They won't come to you, you have to go to them. Unless you are lucky just happend to stumble on one.

Your trying to sell US (the hobbiest's and readers) on this product.
The burden of proof is on the sellers,backers,and makers. Its not our burden to hunt it down

 

[Len]

I live in the LA area and don't know of anyone using Torpedoes or Hiatt's products (other then High Bright). Maybe in another few years. I'd love to see a photo of this method being employed successfully. I'm probably spoiled by the internet and the plethora of photos of successful tanks using other methods. I guess it requires more work then I'm willing to apply just to see one photo of a successful HDL tank.

Feel free to submit your aquarium to AAOLM.

that is not a bad advice when the system can support it. It is a bad advice when a system can't support it and fish start dying

We'll agree to disagree then. Fully stocking the tank from day one involves a lot of risks other then nitrogenous toxins, and it's certainly nothing I'd ever recommend, especially to new hobbyists.

Bill, thanks for the new pics. Keep us posted. After diatoms, you'll probably experience all sorts of algae stages, but it'll sort itself out. That's a mighty big population of snails and hermits you got there!

Another question about RN Bacteria: What does it help reduce, and how so? Matter can neither be created or destroyed, so I'm curious as to what pathways they take to exit the system.

 

[skylab1]

Snake has already bosted it was suppose to be in a magazine.
Yet to be seen though. As well as a healthy reef tank using this method Yet to be seen

I am talking about the advanced aquarist on this web site, not something else.

Even thier website says not to do it.
There is no system that will handle a full bioload on day one,day two or day three,especialy a large system.
At least not with coral and inverts. You lucked out not knowing a small tank will cycle MUCH faster with no rock and fish only. Even faster with a cyclying agent.
The only way around it is to use some old tank water and substrate from a mature system. Bout a 50/50mix and you can add fish and coral in it within two-three days with a very small cycle ( IN A SMALL TANK.)
You will still get a small algae bloom, and that method does NOT include fresh rock. You can add mature rock from a mature system but fresh rock will crash it, and cycle all over again.

Still thinking inside the box I see........
Small tank doesn't cycle any faster then larger tank, not under this system, they all cycle the same: 24hours period.
No one is saying full bioload in one day, it's say you can have fish in the first day. Still not reading correctly I see........

Thats what gets me about this system. The rock is going to die off if its fresh. There will be no bacteria present on the substrate if its new,nore in the water is its fresh. RN bacteria Is a cycle enhancer by its own admition to seed the carbon bed. The carbon dwelling bacteria may eat the nasties in the filter system but they will not survive on live rock or live sand as it breeds lower numbers of the needed bacteria they thrive on. (also taken from thier website and users of the product that also sell it).
so there is the mystery. How can it cycle your tank in 24 hours from a totaly fresh set up?
It cant. The cycle still has to take place.Seems to me this dosent cure the problem it only subdues the sypmtoms as the needed bcterium grow on your live rock and sand. Without this kind of bacteria coral, and fish simply will not survive. There is more to balance out then just controlling trates and amonia spikes.

RN bacteria is not a cycle enhancer, is bacteria that remove protein, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. It doesn't not die off like other bacteria, it will colonize all available surface include LR and LS, there is no mystery.
Majority of the bacteria is in the carbon inside the filter, it does not need the LR or LS, you can have a bare tank as long as you have the required amount of the tri-base carbon and flow rate the tank will cycle in 24 hours period. Once the cycle is complete is done! I use LR and LS as a docor ONLY not as filtration like regular tank setup.

If what you say if true then the 100 gallon I setup 5 month ago for a customer would have crash long time ago since it has no LR only a thin layer of LS. 4 damsels was added the day the tank was setup, a week later 5 more fish included 3 clown was added. All are still alive today, and that tank don't even use the torpedo filter just 4 regular canister filters. 2 weeks ago the owner added 2 more fish on their own one been a 6" parrotfish. Next time I service the tank I take a photo of the tank.

Frag, if you don't get how this system work, then say you don't get it.
Don't say it can't cycle in 24hours just because you don't get it.
If you don't get it, you don't get it. There is nothing me or anyone else can help you with that.

 

[skylab1]

I live in the LA area and don't know of anyone using Torpedoes or Hiatt's products (other then High Bright). Maybe in another few years. I'd love to see a photo of this method being employed successfully. I'm probably spoiled by the internet and the plethora of photos of successful tanks using other methods. I guess it requires more work then I'm willing to apply just to see one photo of a successful HDL tank.

I know you are in the LA area, a restaurant in San Gabriel just recently coverted their 90 gallon tank to the Haitt system, a week 3 the tank looks 100 times better then before and they remove both skimmers they were using. You are welcome to take a look, instead of looking at a static photo go see a real tank that use the system. You have to go their the restaurant won't come to you.

Feel free to submit your aquarium to AAOLM.

As soon as I finish with the 75 gallon reef show tank I will.

We'll agree to disagree then. Fully stocking the tank from day one involves a lot of risks other then nitrogenous toxins, and it's certainly nothing I'd ever recommend, especially to new hobbyists.

Again, now one is sugguesting to fully stock a tank from day one. It say you can have fish in day one if you don't have LR to cure. The RN bacteria need to eat as well, it consume protein, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Fresh LR will have ton of that stuff, once the LR is cured it will no longer proudces watse therefor a wates producing animal need to be added to the tank and this can be any fish or inverts.

 

[Len]

To save my sanity, I'm going to just observe this thread now (hopefully for new photos). The discussion has been utterly staganant for an amazing 18 pages.

 

[FragMaster]

:lol: :lol: :lol: 8O

 

[Omni2226]

Pictures....I fail to understand how a system that has been around for this long....and no one has a mature reef tank to take pictures of.

Or any tank. Pictures of a mature tank, not a startup. Two or three pictures of the tank and the filter system in action...doesnt seem like too much to ask for to me.

 

[Snake USMC]

Frag,

Go to my web site http://www.HDLtd.com and you will see photos of healthy reef tanks.

You can deny it, but it is there and will not go away.

You have not even called the people who own a pet shop in Fl and they have been using it for over 6 years. I DO believe they use it on reef tanks because as I mentioned, there is NO difference beween fish and corals in the area where they are found.

Snake

 

[Anonymous]

Frag,

Go to my web site http://www.HDLtd.com and you will see photos of healthy reef tanks.

You can deny it, but it is there and will not go away.

You have not even called the people who own a pet shop in Fl and they have been using it for over 6 years. I DO believe they use it on reef tanks because as I mentioned, there is NO difference beween fish and corals in the area where they are found.

Snake

Can you give me a link to the page with the pictures of healthy reef tanks so I don't have to wade through that whole ridiculous site?

 

[FragMaster]

You have not even called the people who own a pet shop in Fl and they have been using it for over 6 years.

The burden of proof is on you. Put up or shut up.
I am not the one trying to hock this crap. You are.

I am not going out of my way to make a long distance call to some one I dont know. If it works in a reef post a pic. If they have been using it for 6 years then you have to have a pic of it right? ( WITH the filtration system in the SAME photo).


BTW here is the "healthy" reeftank shot.
http://www.hdltd.com/technical/t_testimonials.html
I would have NEVER Posted that as a healthy tank shot using your system guy. Looks like a rcovering "crashed" tank.

Any body notice yet he also sells "Memory Doctor"?
Ever see those late night infomercials? enough said.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow,

Snake, those tanks you posted pictures off there as a healthy testimonial sure do look awful green....

They sort of remind me of a certain other "do no water changes only have plant life" person's tank...

Strange the similarity's there.....

 

[Bill S]

I emailed the guy with the photos - it bounced back. The email address is no longer valid.

 

[Snake USMC]

Dear knuckel head and fragmaster,

Well the site is not ridiculous, it is informative. As you notice we do carry things for the environmental which is our main business.

I have already put up more information than any other manufacture has. Why don’t you call Kent or Coral Life and ask them for their formulas? See the response they give you.

frag, since you are to lazy to call, I shall not make that call for you. If you want to prove me wrong, then call and spend a few dollars asking Bob how long they have set up their tanks, reefs etc and what system they are using and how it works.

Noting I have posted you have accepted even the test results from outside labs.

As for reef, there is nothing different than a fish tank. (Oh no, you are going to have a heart attack!!) The same water quality the fish are found in, (and I laugh at you’re prior post frag concerning not as much flow in certain parts of the reef, where do you get information such as that????) What the fish need, the corals need the anemones need, the clams need. There is NO difference between them.

I can keep acros without any sweat or hassle. I follow my own rules and it works every time.

As stated before, I have attempted to explain this different science to you without avail.

The first stage was. NO, you cannot cycle in 24 hours
NO there are no AEROBIC Nitrogen CYCLEs
NO You cannot keep fish living in a small tank because the rapid change in water quality. (frag and his last post is 180 against his own statement)
NO, it is harder to keep a larger tank
NO, it is harder to keep reef
NO, fish are different than reef keeping
NO, the bacteria in a sewage plant is different than a aquarium.
NO, I won’t allow you to prove me wrong because I will NO make any phone calls which will support your contention and thus prove me wrong, even though I have asked for proof but are not willing to ask the people who have been using it for years.
NO, you must have a skimmer, etc and make the hobby very expensive and time consuming to function.
NO, I will NOT try your product even though you will give it to me free.
NO and the list goes on and on and on with many cuss words because the writer believes he can intimidate me with such language. Remember, I have been worked over by processionals, and you don’t come even close.

Ocean Enviro LLC just spoke to me today. They are sending new test data for the overseas tests concerning the AEROBIC reduction of NITRATES. I shall post them when I receive them. I believe this time their stating values were 12,000 mg/L and the reduction to 200 mg/L occurred within four days. Shall post their actual data when it is forward to me.

Funny, environmental people who do this for a living not a hobby believe the test data - you who do it for a hobby do not believe and think your way is the only way. No, there are other ways. You can keep your way and have less fish in your aquarium and more death loss, plus more time spent keeping your aquarium alive. I do not have to.

Reread my NO’s and then go back 18 pages and you will see I am correct.

Respectfully submitted,

Snake
562 428 9973
http://www.HDLtd.com
[email protected]

 

[Len]

You know, I'm just going to lock the thread. The recent posts are more of the same nothingness from all sides.