dechlorinate?

[EB847]

will i need to add any dechlorinization additive if using ro/di and io salt?

 

[biotech_chris]

DI will remove chlorine, but bare bones RO will not. If you have an RO, with no DI make sure to use a carbon pre/post filter, or chelating agent. However if you have a skimmer, you won't be able to use a Tap Water Dechlorinator.

If you have RO and DI then you're fine.

 

[Anonymous]

no. Mixing the salt in the water is sufficient.

Dechlorinators remove oxygen from the water.

 

[biotech_chris]

Dechlorinators remove oxygen from the water.

Please explain.

Although I forgot to mention that aeration will remove chlorine, it will not remove chloramine, which some cities use to treat water. But since you've got RO/DI this is all trivial.

 

[Anonymous]

If you have an RO/DI then no. Just mixing tap water with the salt does not remove the Chlorine.

 

[biotech_chris]

Just mixing tap water with the salt does not remove the Chlorine.

It will if the mix is aerated overnight. Aeration is the key though, and can take 24 hours.

 

[Anonymous]

Just mixing tap water with the salt does not remove the Chlorine.

It will if the mix is aerated overnight. Aeration is the key though, and can take 24 hours.

Yes, but just adding the salt does not. In my fresh days I use to airate tap water 24-36 hours before a water change.

 

[ChrisRD]

will i need to add any dechlorinization additive if using ro/di and io salt?

No. As mentioned above, chlorine/chloramine should not make it past the RO/DI unit.

 

[biotech_chris]

Just mixing tap water with the salt does not remove the Chlorine.

It will if the mix is aerated overnight. Aeration is the key though, and can take 24 hours.

Yes, but just adding the salt does not. In my fresh days I use to airate tap water 24-36 hours before a water change.

Agreed. Perhaps I was hasty with my typing.

 

[Anonymous]

Dechlorinators remove oxygen from the water.

Please explain.

Although I forgot to mention that aeration will remove chlorine, it will not remove chloramine, which some cities use to treat water. But since you've got RO/DI this is all trivial.

dechlorinators bind up oxygen.

For reference:

http://sfwater.org/detail_preview.cfm/M ... /C_ID/2225



which contains:

Q 22: What are the methods for removing chloramine from fish aquariums?
A: Just as with chlorine, chloramine can harm all saltwater and freshwater fish, reptiles, shellfish, and amphibians that live in water, because they take chloramine directly into their bloodstream through their gills. People and animals that don’t live in water can safely drink chloraminated water because their digestive process neutralizes chloramine before it enters the bloodstream (SFDPH/SFPUC). Effective procedures are available to remove chloramine and ammonia. Commercial establishments and hobbyists involved in fish rearing need to take precautions to prevent losses. There are two methods that can be used to remove or neutralize chloramine before adding water to a fish tank, pond, or aquarium: (1) GAC filtration system specifically designed to remove chloramine, or (2) conditioner or additive that contains a dechloraminating chemical for both ammonia and chlorine. Products are available at local pet and aquarium supply stores. The residential and commercial fish owners are advised to verify which method is best for them with their pet store or aquatic/aquarium retailer.
If too much dechlorinating agent is added to the aquarium or pond water, it may bind up all of the oxygen in the water. In this case, the fish may suffocate. It is important to follow carefully the label instructions

Additionally chlorine is a gas which rapidily dissapates when removed from the closed plumbing environment. Chloramine is basically liquid bleach which rapidily breaks down to chlorine and ammonia. Both occur with simply pouring the water into the tank. But 5 minutes of the mixing salt removes a majority. Plus salt mixes contain dechlorinators also.

What we do with our tanks is let them run for weeks before adding fish. So the chlorine chloramine are long gone. Then add much lower amount of new water.

I have never seen a single fish showing any signs of distress when using untreated tap water. For the reasons above.

But I have seen very low ph values the only time I used prime+ to bind up ammonia. Sure it bound up the ammonia and it probably saved the fish. But the resulting low ph value also indicated oxygen was reduced and/or carbon dioxide increased.

 

[biotech_chris]

Additionally chlorine is a gas which rapidily dissapates when removed from the closed plumbing environment. Chloramine is basically liquid bleach which rapidily breaks down to chlorine and ammonia. Both occur with simply pouring the water into the tank. But 5 minutes of the mixing salt removes a majority. Plus salt mixes contain dechlorinators also.

It takes quite a bit longer than 5 minutes to rid the solution of chlorine/amine.

 

[ChrisRD]

I have never seen a single fish showing any signs of distress when using untreated tap water. For the reasons above.

What about some of the fish that have died in your saltwater system(s)? I believe Guy rattled off a list in a thread here at RDO once...

 

[Anonymous]

Additionally chlorine is a gas which rapidily dissapates when removed from the closed plumbing environment. Chloramine is basically liquid bleach which rapidily breaks down to chlorine and ammonia. Both occur with simply pouring the water into the tank. But 5 minutes of the mixing salt removes a majority. Plus salt mixes contain dechlorinators also.

It takes quite a bit longer than 5 minutes to rid the solution of chlorine/amine.

Ditto what Chris says. It takes a long, long time for chloramine to break down.

 

[Anonymous]

dechlorinators bind up oxygen.

For reference:

http://sfwater.org/detail_preview.cfm/M ... /C_ID/2225

That is only true if excessive dechlorinator is used. And to be honest, if someone misuse chemical, there are many other issues he/she need to worry about beside temporary low oxygen level in the water.

 

[Anonymous]

I have never seen a single fish showing any signs of distress when using untreated tap water. For the reasons above.

What about some of the fish that have died in your saltwater system(s)? I believe Guy rattled off a list in a thread here at RDO once...

Yes he did.

yes fish die in my tanks.

None of which has happened after adding top off water to my systems.

For instance my 10g FW probably has 60-100 fish die each month. There is 6 reproducing females in the tank. And I only have a stable population of 20-30 fish. 60-100 fish being born and dieing each month is reasonable. Yet the tank has ran for 4 years with that population Which came from the original trio that started the tank.

Dispite a huge screwup last sept I still have fish over three years in my current 55g.

There are many reasons for fish to die in tanks. A stable environment with 0 nitrates and phosphates, plenty of oxygen and food is not one of them. And results from using untreated tap water and no water changes.

 

[Anonymous]

>...For instance my 10g FW probably has 60-100 fish die each month. There is 6 reproducing females in the tank. ...

Having a guppy/molly tank is very different from SW setup, where hardly any fish will reproduce in most cases.

PLB, although this is not the newbies forum, some comments can still be considered to be dangerous, and I hope you do look thru your source and digest the info before posting. For example, the rate at whick chloramine breaks down was mentioned in the link you stated. The adverb you used, "rapidily," contradicts the info in the link, which states that "It usually takes days for chloramine to be dissipated when exposed to air and sunlight." Without the use of UV, it can takes weeks before chloramine is dissipated.

A lot of thing in this hobby can be considered to be witchcraft, but some do have scientific basis behind it. It is not in the best interest of the hobby if you mix personal option/observation/conclusion as fact sthat other can repeat.

 

[Anonymous]

>...For instance my 10g FW probably has 60-100 fish die each month. There is 6 reproducing females in the tank. ...

Having a guppy/molly tank is very different from SW setup, where hardly any fish will reproduce in most cases.

PLB, although this is not the newbies forum, some comments can still be considered to be dangerous, and I hope you do look thru your source and digest the info before posting. For example, the rate at whick chloramine breaks down was mentioned in the link you stated. The adverb you used, "rapidily," contradicts the info in the link, which states that "It usually takes days for chloramine to be dissipated when exposed to air and sunlight." Without the use of UV, it can takes weeks before chloramine is dissipated.

A lot of thing in this hobby can be considered to be witchcraft, but some do have scientific basis behind it. It is not in the best interest of the hobby if you mix personal option/observation/conclusion as fact sthat other can repeat.

I agree with your post.

I have never seen any scientific studies on any SW fish where a level of chloramine resulted in 90% deaths against a control where the only difference was the chloramine.

Additionally if chloramine totally broke down and the resulting chlorine gas was totally dissapated by simply running the cold water into a container, the ammonia would still remain. And with no bacteria and no plant life could remain in the system indefinately. So the "effects" of chloramine would remain indefinately.

Further I have not seen any studies as to what the actual out of the faucet concentration of chloramine actually is.

Just as I have not seen to what level and under what conditions dechlorinators bind up oxygen.

So I'm just stuck with my experience. My ph did crash after using prime+. It did bind up ammonia.

And I have never lost a single fish or seen any signs of distress when using straight untreated tap water from 1/2 dozen cities in many tanks since the late 70's.

That is just my experience and opinion.

So what I say is no more dangerous than advising people to reach for a bottle of stuff that binds up oxygen. Or stripping everything out of the water with equipment that can fail. After all calcium, carbonate, magnesium and other trace elements essential to our systems is in the tap water also. And at much higher levels than say copper.

But just my .02

 

[Anonymous]

I have never seen any scientific studies on any SW fish where a level of chloramine resulted in 90% deaths against a control where the only difference was the chloramine.

Chloramine is relatively cheap (and very toxic, if you ever know why people tell you never use windex with clorax beach), so it should be a easy experiment by pouring it into a saltwater tank and see how much you need to add to kill off 90% of the fish. The level should not be much more than what they add to municipal water supply, maybe to within one order of magnitude. If you have a black molly tank with lots of females, maybe you want to do this since hundreds of fishes are dying in your tank anyway....

Additionally if chloramine totally broke down and the resulting chlorine gas was totally dissapated by simply running the cold water into a container, the ammonia would still remain. And with no bacteria and no plant life could remain in the system indefinately. So the "effects" of chloramine would remain indefinately.

I don't think anybody can keep a SW tank without billions of bacteria in it. They are omnipresence.

Further I have not seen any studies as to what the actual out of the faucet concentration of chloramine actually is.

Don't know about your water company, but over here, they are required by law to mail you a water test result as well as making the result available upon request.

Just as I have not seen to what level and under what conditions dechlorinators bind up oxygen.

It binds up oxygen, among other things, but if you worry about it, you are adding too much.

So I'm just stuck with my experience. My ph did crash after using prime+. It did bind up ammonia.

I hope you have more info by now. Anything that shields the ammonia will affect the pH. Don't know what is in prime+, but the fact that your pH crashed is a good indication that you were doing something too dramatic.

And I have never lost a single fish or seen any signs of distress when using straight untreated tap water from 1/2 dozen cities in many tanks since the late 70's.

Luckily, in the US, the tap water is potable in almost every cities. If you can attribute the lost of fish by using untreated tap water (oxymoron, since all tap water are treated, but we all know what you mean when you say untreated), then there will be a big issue. I don't think anybody is saying that by using tap water will kill fish immediately (it can be easily done, however), but there is negative subsequence if you do it long term, such as build up of certain chemical that plant life/bacteria does not remove. Water change is better option for these issue, and water quality varies greatly from one part of US to another.

That is just my experience and opinion.

Yes, and we respect that. Just that some people may not realize that, and that's why I am concerned.

So what I say is no more dangerous than advising people to reach for a bottle of stuff that binds up oxygen. Or stripping everything out of the water with equipment that can fail. After all calcium, carbonate, magnesium and other trace elements essential to our systems is in the tap water also. And at much higher levels than say copper.

There are always pros and cons, and I try to give both sides when it is necessary. Given the right tool/method, there is always ways to make it not work. When we assume the competence of people, when they use RO/DI, for example, the end result is more predictable than using tap water. This is why suggesting the use of RO/DI is better suggestion than telling people to use straight tap water for topoffs.

 

[biotech_chris]

Alright... Since we've heard from each side, I'll post something that should help settle the issue. Here are some worthy reasons not to use tap water without any sort of end user treatment...

Culled from:
http://www.glendalewaterandpower.com/pdf/waterquality_2004.pdf

Glendale City water is considered good as far as municipal supplies are concerned, however if you want to limit the variables concerning risks to aquarium livestock, you'll treat the water you use.

As of 2004:

Nitrate (ppm): 0.47
Sulfate (ppm): 145
Copper (ppb): 166

 

[Omni2226]

Better safe than sorry. Use a good dechlorinator like amqel or jungle product.