Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer

[Anonymous]

So not to thread hijack but since were mentioning ways of lowering nitrates and phosphates I have an INGENIOUS method of keeping my tank under control that I want to share. I first use only RODI water with my 90 dollar rodi filter, and secondly I understock my tank with fish(only clowns and small fish) and voila!!! No algae lol. No use for crazy high maintanance methods. Just do it right from the get go. Dont over feed, do use the reccommended equipment (RODI) and DONT overstock.

there is infinitely more wisdom in this one small post than in all of santamonica's threads/posts combined on this subject 8)

well said

 

[Anonymous]

Yes but what do you tell the beginner who couldn't stop buying livestock, and is complaining about "the green stuff on her rocks"? And she's already running a skimmer.

I'm sure this type of person is a very large percentage of the people who walk in a lfs.

see the post right above this one

i've advised thousands over the past 3 or so decades how to deal with 'the green stuff on their rocks'-never had to even think about a turf scrubber

offering another symptom treater instead of educating others as to what the true causes are and treating THEM, is what makes you so dangerous to those 'noobs' you profess to want to help

 

[Anonymous]

i've advised thousands over the past 3 or so decades how to deal with 'the green stuff on their rocks'-never had to even think about a turf scrubber

Because they weren't available then.

They have been around for ages.


My concern about this type of thread is the method is presented as a panacea, which it isn't.

 

[Anonymous]

is what makes you so dangerous to those 'noobs' you profess to want to help

Again, state one "danger" of using algae/turf, as I asked before.

The dangers have been stated in this thread several times.

 

[Anonymous]

A turf scrubber/filter has the potential to kill corals - its been mentioned by at least 3 people in this thread.





Page 151 (and pages in that area) of TRA vol 1 talk about turf scrubbers and why they may be good for mangrove and estuarine systems (similar to what you seem to have) but not particularly good for reef systems. The section also talks about how algae begets algae.

I also wonder about the statement that 'pods eat turf', as my understanding is most of them are detritivores.

 

[Anonymous]

Oops, never mind. In TRA 3 they revise their position, with caveats (getting rid of other types of filtration may not be what they recommend). I'll see if I can ask Charles about it more tomorrow.


At the same time, I think that long term survival is at least as important as short term survival.


And, IIRC, a lot of the dangers with turf and sps has got to do with proximity.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes pods eat turf (too). They will eat it all if you let them. I myself, in 8 days of the test bucket, had holes eaten out of the algae. FW cleaning, of course, kills them.

Very very very few "pods" (what pods are you talking about?) consume turf algae.

 

[Anonymous]

Oops, never mind. In TRA 3 they revise their position, with caveats (getting rid of other types of filtration may not be what they recommend). I'll see if I can ask Charles about it more tomorrow.


At the same time, I think that long term survival is at least as important as short term survival.


And, IIRC, a lot of the dangers with turf and sps has got to do with proximity.

The skinny is turf algae, which isn't limited to one type but rather a life stage of numerous algae, put out compounds that inhibit coral growth and will kill them over time.

We just need to get both Chris's in this thread, both know a ton about this and were the ones that posted the papers in the other thread.

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:

 

[Anonymous]

But then again, my purpose is not yes/no skimmer, it's N and P reduction

.

Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer

:lol:

:roll:

i've lost count as to how many times you've backpedaled so far

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.marine.usf.edu/videos/2007-01-26.wmv

 

[Anonymous]

It's called giving them options

er-no, it's called backpedaling, and it's usually the course taken by those who have no leg to stand on


you really need to present your claims and ideas far more sensibly, less sensationally, and with far more actual evidence/proof along with enough data to be at least remotely statistically relevant, before shooting off your mouth to those who have no way of knowing how to deal with the potential disastrous results of following your 'philosophies' of how 'foolproof' and 'tested' your claims are

you have neither discovered, nor re-invented, any wheels here

it would also behoove you to actually listen to those who are trying stubbornly (to no apparent avail) to educate and help you, and those you might (read: 'are') be misleading with 'half truths' and misunderstanding about what is acually going on in these systems-both those with, and without, scrubbers

 

[Anonymous]

:lol: Didn't watch the link coprolite provided, did you SantaMonica?

 

[Anonymous]

you really need to present your claims and ideas far more sensibly, less sensationally

I don't really need to do anything.

and with far more actual evidence/proof

See the thread.

before shooting off your mouth

I'll say whatever I want. And no, I don't care what you think.

deal with the potential disastrous results

As I requested before, and you did not respond, I'll ask again: State a single disasterous result that can come from a turf scrubber.

it would also behoove you to actually listen

I've responded to every single post on this site and others. You, of course (and this last post of yours is an example) have not stated a single argument about the merits of turf. You are obviously after arguments, for arguments sake.

I'll even ask again: State a single (one) "disastrous result" that can come from installing a turf screen. I think most people would agree that "disastrous result" would include:

Death
Serious bodily harm
Destruction of tank and stand
Crash of tank within a month

But since I know you'll try to change the definitions, I'll even let these count as "disastrous results":

A fish that dies within a week
A coral that dies within a week
A piece of equipment that fails with a month

So, if you can name just one, using the above definition, I'll cease posting. If you cannot name just one, then you are the one that has no leg to stand on.

there's a universe of difference between responding to a post and actually 'listening' to what you're responding to

 

[Ben1]

A fish that dies within a week
A coral that dies within a week
A piece of equipment that fails with a month

I did watch the video and they did say turf algae next to a coral can kill in in a matter of hours.

Thanks for the link Galleon.

 

[Ben1]

Seems like what ever data is giving you will try to twist it to show that the turf bucket is a good thing.....

IME there is more then one way to do things, more then one way to have a great reef tank. The methods I choice to use and promote are the proven ones such as skimmers, W/C, fuges, and GFO/carbon use where appropriate.

Can you show me "great sps" systems run on your turf buckets alone?

If anybody has not yet hooked up their refugium or skimmer, or was just looking get rid of these things, then you might want to try one of these mega-powerful filters that I built,

I removed the skimmer, carbon, phosban, polyfilter(s), and filtersock; I don't use ozone, vodka, zeo or anything else.

I would personally never try to tell anyone to completely depend on one single filter. Instead I choice a more balanced approach. I wasnt going to get involved with this thread, and won't bother posting in it again. My reefkeeping interest at this point is SPS/Clam systems, and untill see a flourishing SPS system running just off of a turf bucket alone, not needing carbon, GFO, skimmers, seperate fuge, etc...I am not convinced that its a miracle filter.

My tank is 2.5 years old, has gone through two complete crashes; I fired both maintenance men/consultants that I was paying at the time. Now I do it myself, and for the first time ever, things are starting to grow, old algae is disolving, coralline is growing, and N and P are zero. Turf has been on the tank for one month, and N and P hit zero in the first week. I have no SPS, and don't want any.

That statement alone makes me skeptical of all this. First you've only been using the method for a month? Since when does one month equate to success. Its like when I joke with my LFS guy that he has reefers come in and and tell him they have had great success with a certain fish/coral/inverts and then go onto tell him, yeah it lived for 2 months!!!! One of my old time reefer buddies runs an aquarium maintance company and he was telling me about his clients, I just dont even understand why anyone would hire a maintance company in the first place. Seems silly to me....

In anycase I am done since I realize you are already convinced of your own interest in this turf bucket, no one likes to have an idea put down.
Best of luck
:!:

 

[Anonymous]

Can you provide a genus, family or species for these "pods" you speak of? If you want you could send them to me and I could have one of our PHD's ID it for you since you seem to not even know what your looking at :lol:

There are enough pods that grow in and eat turf that cleaning it in FW at least weekly is a standard procedure, without which you develp holes in the algae:

The skinny is turf algae, which isn't limited to one type but rather a life stage of numerous algae, put out compounds that inhibit coral growth and will kill them over time.

If this were true, and I'm sure you mean sps, then there would be zero cases of long-term successful tanks using only algae for filtering. But there are many long-term cases, which I'm slowly compiling, and therefore your blanket statement is not true.

Nope, you know what ASSuming does I said coral and I meant coral

You are on your way to becoming a real EcoAqualizer type poster, I'll just ignore you since you seem to ignore facts and people that actually know a snot load more then you. Keep up re-inventing the wheel, we'll keep laughing at you :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Can you provide a genus, family or species for these "pods" you speak of

No, and I don't care what type they are. They are food for the tank. Your logic is that if I don't know the species, then they are not valid/useful. My small damsels chase them around all day and eat them. They don't care the species either. Do you know the right-hand rule that predicts the EMF which rotates the armature in your return pump? (EE's please reply). Probably not.

This is the kind of response that seems to be making your posts hard to swallow. Its the tone that is overshadowing the content. I also find it strange that you would throw out good reasoning and science to score a point about pods when you otherwise seem very interested in good evidence and documentation. IMO, you are turning people off with that kind of tone, and IMO that is a shame. You also tend to make blanket statments, and when asked about them you tend to say something like 'I never said ... ', which seems a little odd because the blanket statements weren't specific in the first place which is what is leading to some confusion. Fantastic claims and generalities will rub people the wrong way because they are all too common in our hobby and people are weary of them - especially when they are directed at helping newbies. I say, ignore the snarking, just respond with information, but feel free to post in the way that you see fit. This prolly would have been better in a PM, but its late and I am jetlagged so sorry if its off the mark

Mentioning pods that eat algae raised the eyebrows of people who actually know a great deal about pods because they generally are detritivores not herbivores. You mentioned, quite strongly, that they do eat it, but you really haven't supported the idea except to show some holes in turf which really could be from almost anything. It has nothing to do with pods as a food (and actually my initial comment about the pods was brought on by your insistence that they be killed in the turf precisely because they are good fish food), but supporting a claim that seems to go against fairly strong and supported knowledge.

 

[trilinearmipmap]

Excellent idea SantaMonica.

What you have done is take an established idea and demonstrated a practical and simple way for people to implement the idea.

I'm going to try it in my 30 gallon cube. It is a higher-nutrient lower-light reef. So far it has two Ocellaris clowns, a BTA, and a Goniopora. All are thriving. However due to underskimming (Tunze Reefpak 200) and undermaintenance (demanding job, 3 other aquariums, and family/kids to juggle) there are various algae growing in the tank.

I don't think this would be the best method for an SPS tank. My mixed LPS/SPS 120 gallon reef is run using the standard skimmer/fuge with chaeto method and it is going well. For a higher-nutrient reef with less demand for absolutely perfect water quality I expect the turf scrubber to do better. I will set one up and see. If it doesn't work out, I have lost maybe $20.00 in parts. For an SPS tank I would see this turf scrubber augmenting the existing filtration rather than replacing it.

I am encouraged to see the pack of people attacking your thread like starving wolves ripping flesh off a newborn caribou. Nice to see that there are people like that it the hobby who will bash any new idea. I will try your idea, I expect it will be successful, if it is not I will chalk it up to experience.

 

[Anonymous]

Excellent idea SantaMonica.

What you have done is take an established idea and demonstrated a practical and simple way for people to implement the idea.

I'm going to try it in my 30 gallon cube. It is a higher-nutrient lower-light reef. So far it has two Ocellaris clowns, a BTA, and a Goniopora. All are thriving. However due to underskimming (Tunze Reefpak 200) and undermaintenance (demanding job, 3 other aquariums, and family/kids to juggle) there are various algae growing in the tank.

I don't think this would be the best method for an SPS tank. My mixed LPS/SPS 120 gallon reef is run using the standard skimmer/fuge with chaeto method and it is going well. For a higher-nutrient reef with less demand for absolutely perfect water quality I expect the turf scrubber to do better. I will set one up and see. If it doesn't work out, I have lost maybe $20.00 in parts. For an SPS tank I would see this turf scrubber augmenting the existing filtration rather than replacing it.

I am encouraged to see the pack of people attacking your thread like starving wolves ripping flesh off a newborn caribou. Nice to see that there are people like that it the hobby who will bash any new idea. I will try your idea, I expect it will be successful, if it is not I will chalk it up to experience.

you misunderstood every single criticism in this thread, and the nature of why/where it's directed

it's mainly that folks who've been doing this for decades have seen too many noobs who DON'T have the background knowledge to UNDERSTAND the 'flip side' of touted 'miracle type' filters and how to deal with what can be disastrous risks/consequences get hosed as a result of their naivete combined with a recommendation born out of what is essentialy ignorance/personal anecdote minus the understanding of the science behind the observations

the attitude of someone in this hobby like 'santa' who's been running a tank rather unsuccessfully for only about 2 yrs even beginning to argue to 3 people who prob'ly have 50 yrs plus experience between them on various and multiple types of systems ranging from single digit nanos to commercial operations is the only thing i find disgusting on this thread, and i'm astounded that that type of chutzpa behavior is acually drawing in fans 8O