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seamaiden":37nl1atl said:
That was the point of my post, SW, that very often the reason why certain information is limited is because it is used by professionals in a given field .

That really makes no sense to me. In my field, it is very important that we relay knowledge to people who may benefit. Professionals in my given field want others to benefit.We actively promote knowledge about human disease prevention, prognosis and treatment. If you or Jim or Matt have knowledge that can be shared, evaluated and utilized by hobbyists, why not share it?
 
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SeahorseWhisperer_":9nw8j6g3 said:
If you or Jim or Matt have knowledge that can be shared, evaluated and utilized by hobbyists, why not share it?

...because they're lazy drunks?

Peace,

Chip :P
 
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Well, drunks can be cute.....

Really, having a forum where we can get information/opinions from more than one source is a good thing. Having these two bitching at each other is entertaining, I do admit.
So far, we have gotten: Romaine lettuce can be used to entice a fish to eat, then when the fish is eating, it can be upgraded to more nutritious food. Actually, good info and advice, IMO. The bitchy treatment of each other just adds to the drama of the thread. If we had just gotten the food info, we would have finished this thread and already forgot about it. But, SM and Jim have made the thread much more memorable...

Did you two plan that?
 
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SeahorseWhisperer_":sfegg7ht said:
Well, drunks can be cute.....

Really, having a forum where we can get information/opinions from more than one source is a good thing. Having these two bitching at each other is entertaining, I do admit.
So far, we have gotten: Romaine lettuce can be used to entice a fish to eat, then when the fish is eating, it can be upgraded to more nutritious food. Actually, good info and advice, IMO. The bitchy treatment of each other just adds to the drama of the thread. If we had just gotten the food info, we would have finished this thread and already forgot about it. But, SM and Jim have made the thread much more memorable...

Did you two plan that?

The competition to see who's more right makes me pretty nauseous m'self, but you may have a point. Bicker away, you two! ;)
 
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SeahorseWhisperer_":2qo0yveb said:
seamaiden":2qo0yveb said:
That was the point of my post, SW, that very often the reason why certain information is limited is because it is used by professionals in a given field .

That really makes no sense to me. In my field, it is very important that we relay knowledge to people who may benefit. Professionals in my given field want others to benefit.We actively promote knowledge about human disease prevention, prognosis and treatment. If you or Jim or Matt have knowledge that can be shared, evaluated and utilized by hobbyists, why not share it?

Agreed!

I thought I did share the pertinent info. I could not find an online version of the paper I was referencing. It compares Thalassia (seagrass) to a range of seafood, vegetables, formulated diets, and seaweed with the purpose of obtaining an ideal diet for Chelonia mydas (green sea turtles). I suppose I could type out the numbers if you would really like to see them.
 
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Matt_":212vn19l said:
The competition to see who's more right makes me pretty nauseous m'self, but you may have a point. Bicker away, you two! ;)

I don't blame you Matt quite honestly.

Here's my original post regarding lettuce and tangs...

JimM":212vn19l said:
I'll bet you can use it all day for years and it would be fine. I just like to er in favor of the fish. For more a more demanding species it might be more critical.
That algae though, there's frankly no more nutritious thing on the planet, for people too. :)

I don't eat it. :P

Here is Marina's reply...

seamaiden":212vn19l said:
And you know this because you're an expert in nutrition, right? :roll: What else are you an expert on, Jim? Maybe you should march right down to each and ever aquarium that uses this food as a staple for many of their tropical herbivores and let them know all about it! :lol:

Nuff said I think.
This didn't start as me having to be right, it started in response to this inappropriate, uncalled for "expert" post. Having said that, I feel dumber for having responded to this at all.
 
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Matt, I was trying to point out that the information you were sharing was/is very valuable to those of us who are trying to optimize the nutrition for our pets. I myself really appreciate it. I also talk a lot with the health professionals at our hospital to find out my questions about how human health can relate to fish health. The main difference I have found from our diet experts is that humans eat PUFAS, while fish eat HUFAS! But, one of our ID docs has a SW fisn tank, and he is really invaluable to me.


I can't see why you two can't both be right. The cool thing about getting more than one opinion is that it encourages us to try new things, to not get locked into just one way. Our hobby will be stagnant if we can't see more than one way to make it better.
 
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Jim, if you feel dumber for having responded to it, then why did you even feel the need to start a thread on it? Why don't you cite actual data, as I mentioned in another thread, instead of giving folks your Google search that netted a commercial site (directed towards people for human nutrition supplements) with no hard data and an obvious commercial interest?

My original point was that Jim unequivocally declared that the only reason aquariums use the romaine that I mentioned is used at LBAOP was for convenience ONLY. So, I want to know, HOW does he know this?? It does not address nor explain why they go to the expense and trouble they do with all other foodstuffs they use for feeding all the organisms they have. I have yet to see an explanation for that, as I have yet to see any data cited. I don't think that you have the expertise to be making declarative statements like that, Jim, plain and simple. You think you do. I qualified my statement(s) as my observations, you qualified yours with links to commercial sites.

I never said that I have the data (nor have I ever claimed to be an expert), I have endeavored to explain why it's hard to get. People don't want to accept or understand that, that's fine, it's really no skin off my nose, but it is what it is. Many researchers feel rather precious about their very hard work. The woman at LBAOP who was the first to breed weedy sea dragons in captivity allowed NO ONE in her breeding area. And why should she? Why should any serious researcher share all their hard-earned data with just any old schmuck?

SW, have you utilized the data found on fishbase.org? It's a good place to start, as many of the descriptions include gut contents of described fishes (of course, that, at times, may require killing the fish in order to empty the gut).
 
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seamaiden":3g0co7sg said:
The woman at LBAOP who was the first to breed weedy sea dragons in captivity allowed NO ONE in her breeding area. And why should she?

So did she work there 7 days a week? ;)
 

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Matt_":3azqxzdl said:
seamaiden":3azqxzdl said:
The woman at LBAOP who was the first to breed weedy sea dragons in captivity allowed NO ONE in her breeding area. And why should she?

So did she work there 7 days a week? ;)

Maybe she trained monkeys to take care of them when she wasn't there.
 
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seamaiden":27x7q7m3 said:
I think she had a cot. I'm not kidding.

That would not surprise me at all. :lol: They're a lot of work.
 
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seamaiden":fax0idct said:
People don't want to accept or understand that, that's fine, it's really no skin off my nose, but it is what it is. Many researchers feel rather precious about their very hard work. The woman at LBAOP who was the first to breed weedy sea dragons in captivity allowed NO ONE in her breeding area. And why should she? Why should any serious researcher share all their hard-earned data with just any old schmuck?

SW, have you utilized the data found on fishbase.org? It's a good place to start, as many of the descriptions include gut contents of described fishes (of course, that, at times, may require killing the fish in order to empty the gut).

I have perused FishBase. It doesn't have much on the species I am thinking of trying to breed next.

I do know you are right about researchers not wanting to share info. There is so much competition in our hobby, so many big egos. I have a friend who is attempting to breed a species that hasn't been bred in captivity. A guy from our club went to her house and took pictures, then wrote an article saying it was his research. Didn't even mention her in the article at all. She was pretty upset.

But, from my perspective as a OCD hobbyist, why does it really matter who gets credit? Comparing it to human research, does it matter who invented statin drugs first, or that they are getting better?It is research on top of research that gives us a forward direction. If researchers in our hobby were more open, I think it would be very possible that we would have many more CB species available. When I read the threads in the IBTH forum, I sometimes get the feeling that this is a goal to strive for. When I read threads elsewhere that say our hobby is destructive and only for self centered reasons, I wish more people would attempt breeding. Not for fame or money, but to help give back. Maybe one day a Potteri Angel can be as environmentally safe as a FW discus. Maybe.
 

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SeahorseWhisperer_":w5vu9666 said:
But, from my perspective as a OCD hobbyist, why does it really matter who gets credit? Comparing it to human research, does it matter who invented statin drugs first, or that they are getting better?

Spoken like someone who has never spent years of their blood, sweat, tears and life on a project with a potentially notable or revolutionary outcome. The bottom line is, pride is a part of the human condition.
 
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Well, now her fame is she is "some woman" who was the first to breed sea dragons. Compare that to Amanda Vincent who really is famous for her work and research protecting seahorses, or E Borneman or A Calfo who promote and teach others to propagate corals, or that Jarvik guy whose research lead to ventricular heart pumps that are used all over the world.

So, are you saying that if I am the first to breed powder blue tangs in my basement, the credit I get from others will make it worth the blood, sweat, tears and life? Or could there be a better reason to do it...


I wasn't planning on bleeding, though.... I actually hadn't thought it would be that pricey!
 
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coprolite":ktqkgfh8 said:
SeahorseWhisperer_":ktqkgfh8 said:
But, from my perspective as a OCD hobbyist, why does it really matter who gets credit? Comparing it to human research, does it matter who invented statin drugs first, or that they are getting better?

Spoken like someone who has never spent years of their blood, sweat, tears and life on a project with a potentially notable or revolutionary outcome. The bottom line is, pride is a part of the human condition.

It's not just pride, though that is surely a part of the equation. Sure, if we were in a more Marxist state that would be true, but we aren't. Very often there is a very real fiscal result of that blood, sweat, and tears, and that is often just as much of, if not more, a motivator.

SW, what you mention that this man did to this woman is likely why many have learned to be very, very protective of their work (and I hope to hell he was ostracized for doing it, too!).

Think "Mrs. Field's cookie recipes." In the grand scheme of things it's really not that important (seriously, in the grand scheme of things the marine ornamental hobby isn't that important), but it does have a great degree of importance to those involved, and even more so to those who might stand to gain something like a living from the results of their work. Mrs. Field's cookies aren't so important, but they are quite delectable, and so the recipe is highly desirable, and ultimately became how she made a living (a very good one at that).

See, for you, it's a hobby. But there are many, many associated peripheral businesses that go along with the hobby. Everyone has a right to make a living as they see fit, so to me, if they have information that they want people to pay for (such as MS Windows versus open source Linux) then they have that right to maintain their information as they see fit.
 
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SeahorseWhisperer_":2o1rsjn0 said:
I can't see why you two can't both be right. The cool thing about getting more than one opinion is that it encourages us to try new things, to not get locked into just one way. Our hobby will be stagnant if we can't see more than one way to make it better.

How about some substance instead of just verbage? The thing is, there's actually a right answer here IMO if you seek to do what is best for the animals in your care. I'll say it over and over again, you er in favor if the animal. It really comes down to common sense and logic. All the information you need to make an informed decision about the nutrition of your pet is at your fingertips, no Google necessary.

What we first look at when determining what any captive animal should be fed, and this goes for raptors, reptiles, fish, whatever - is what they eat in the wild. Mother nature is pretty good at figuring things out, and second guessing mother nature and deciding you know something better is a slippery slope with regard to captive husbandry, on ANY level, not just nutrition. This goes for anyone, be it you or a zoo, or an aquarium. Most public aquariums and such however are models in this regard - but not all.

If a monitor lizard evolved for millions of years basking for several hours a day in the sun of Tanzania, I'm not going to assume that a 100 watt incandescent bulb will be sufficient for his needs and to heck with UV light. Can I do a boat load of research as to the benefits of UV and UVB light with regards to it's relationship health and to the synthesis of vitamin D3? I can, and I have, (dietary information is again, not proprietary) but I didn't need to. I knew from a common sense, logic, intuitive level that these lizards need sun for long term health, period. I also knew that lacking information as to the levels of vitamin D that V. albigularis or any other varanid was capable of utilizing, that simply adding it to their diet and forgoing sunlight was again, a slippery slope. There may also be benefits of sunlight that are not so easily identifiable through casual observation, as is the case with humans.

So what do I do? I er in favor of the animal, which is what I said in my original post regrading Tangs and macro algae.

I also know, from that ever pesky common sense/logic standpoint that those who have maintained these animals under artificial light conditions for 4 years and counting are a testament to nothing. These lizards can live for 26 years in captivity, and all records have been set by those maintained with access to natural sunlight.

With regard to the feeding of in this case Varanus albigularis (the same can be applied to any animal, other monitor lizards or fish) We look at what it eats in the wild. In case of this species, it's giant land snails, pit vipers and other snakes, other lizards, eggs, insects and carrion. Does he eat just meat? No, he eats the bone, the lungs, the liver, the heart, etc...all things with varying nutritional content. Now, can I do research as to the nutritional value of whole food items vs a piece of steak? Sure! And I have. Did I need to? Not really. I know from being around a while that muscle tissue contains different and limited nutritional value in comparison to other organs and such. I also know that's what he's eating, so that's what I feed him. I also feed him ground turkey, scrambled eggs mixed with bone meal and vitamins. Good stuff, but my lizards fed mostly whole food items outlived those at the San Diego zoo feeding only the ground turkey diet. One of my males was also the largest in captivity in the world, so I'm thinking my husbandry philosophy might have some merit.
I've approached every species kept the same way, and I've worked with 8 or so different species of varanids, and have contributed to scientific papers on 3 species.

If raptors are fed only meat, then decline rather rapidly. Why? They eat whole food items in the wild, and all the vitamins contained therein. The effects of malnutrition induced by the feeding of only meat on many of these birds can be acute, and set it rapidly.
That information courtesy of conversation I had years ago with people who work with these animals.

With regard to tangs for any other marine fish, nothing changes. We look first at what their natural diet is, and that's what we seek to duplicate. If not the natural diet, then the nutritional equivalent. This is just part of sound husbandry philosophy, nothing fringe going on here. Again, as with the monitor lizards kept under normal light bulb or being fed hamburger for 4 years, someone maintaining a fish on lettuce for 4 years is testament to nothing, the lifespan of these animals far eclipses that.

We don't look at macro algae and wonder if the tang can actually absorb and utilize all of those vitamins - that would be silly beyond silly - it's the fish's natural diet!! Not only is lettuce far inferior to macro-algae, the soils that many crops are grown in these days are nutrient depleted. Bad news. This can be mitigated somewhat by feeding lettuce grown organically, but on it's best day it's not going to compare to Nori.

Just use common sense. You don't need exact nutritional breakdowns of every food item. You need to know what the critter eats in it's natural habitat, and whether or not what you're offering matches that. It's clear where romaine lettuce stands with macro-algae in this regard.

A final note on nutritional density - animals and people will compensate for lack of nutritional density by eating MORE food. You will find that if you eat foods that are more nutrient dense, your body will crave less food.
It's the same with fish. A tang will eat lettuce all day, but will require less nutrient dense food by weight (Nori) to stay healthy and grow. Again, as pointed out earlier, the diet should be varied. The point is, lettuce is not a suitable staple.

That's not Google working for you, heck I learned that when studying aquaculture and raising fish for my senior project back in high school back around 88.

Here's a good Link I just found...how about that? :wink:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA145

The animals in your care have multiple challenges to overcome, er in their favor if possible. That at least is my point of view. Marina is not stupid, nor does she lack experience, and her advise is normally on the money. I would submit that in this case...that may not be so...I'll leave that to you. I'm done commenting on the matter, and letting my ego get in the way of saying what really should be said. Hopefully what I said makes sense to you... I can assure you it's the product of years of hard earned knowledge - not Google.

Regards

Jim

edited for spelling.
 
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SM, you are right. For me, it is a hobby, and I don't need to raise fish to pay my house payment. I guess that is how Ocean Rider in Hawaii got so big. They were the first breeding facility (I think) for seahorses and I heard somewhere they actually had guards to protect their secrets. Maybe one day CB sea dragons will be available from the research the woman you cited gained, and she can profit from her research.

Jim, I love reading your stuff. You do have great experience, and I find you a very valuable resource. Thanks for helping us out!

Really, you both are great resources. I don't mind your attitudes. It just shows you are both very passionate about the hobby we all love. But, I keep thinking of Jane Curtin and Dan Ackroyd.....
 

hawaiiantank

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Wow nice um.. discussion. Just joined after doing a few years in the salt water aquariums and I can say I am definitely enjoying the advanced side of the discussions. Even though I did have to google some of the words you guys were using. Liked the drama and even learned some new things.
 

hawaiiantank

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also a little note... living in Hawaii I tend to eat a lot of nori. I even eat the same nori I feed my fish with so maybe thats odd don't know but I like it. :lol:
 

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