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6 weeks ago, You see these guys for sale everywhere. Picked up an active naso tang at 3.0 -3.5" for $35 and a small clown tang for $30. To keep them company there are also a few damsels in there. Had it in Hyposalinity while in quarantine, water conditions are perfect, weekly water changes, change out the carbon every 2 weeks, running on 2 separate small internal cascade filters, have plenty of algae growing in my main setup so I feed it to them.

Everything started well. The naso started eating the fine algae from day one and the clown nibbled on it for the first week, then the clown seemed to stopped eating and get thinner and thinner till at 2 weeks it died. At this point the naso also became less active, but is looking pretty well fed, since the ulva I was feeding it seemed to have taken hold and is continuously growing in there now. I didn't need to add anymore. He never adapted to dried nori and I can see it grazing, so I stopped adding.

Fast fowards to week 6. So I've finished up the hyposalinity treatment and started bringing the salinity up from 1.010 to 1.014 this past weekend. Then I noticed the naso has been lethargic this past week. I didn't think much of it at the time. I moved my hand in there and he was so weak, I could pick him up. He is definitely very weak, but has plenty of muscle mass and a full belly. I thought since the clown died, he just didn't have too much reason to swim around anymore, but something else is up. The damsels are doing well.

My first thought, is drop in oxygen concentration caused by something, (perhaps too much algae is growing now and the levels drop every night), so I added a giant air stone today, but there is already plenty of water movement. I clean out the cascade filters every week and it's not clogging up. I know that as salinity increases dissolved oxygen drops. So if this is the reason, that will fix it. Tangs need lots of oxygen.

Second though, the flat worms that I have growing in my algae scubber must be exploding in the hypo salinity when I added that last big batch of seaweed and it's toxicity has accumulated and I should have done carbon changes every week instead of 2. (/curses!) If this was so, the 25% water changes I've been doing this past 3 days to bring up the salinity should have fixed this also. (Timing is about right, I haven't added ulva since then). but the damsels, my canary in a coal mine, are doing well. Anyway, I'm going to add in more carbon now, scatter it around the tub, not just replace the 2 tablespoons worth inside the internal filters, as this is also a possibility.

Third and final though, Are they still fishing using cyanide and selling fish cheap? This link is from 2008, I don't know if anything has changed in the past decade.
There is really no other reason why this naso is dying and the damsels are not. The clown I gave up on, it wasn't going to make it if it didn't eat enough, but with hind sight... these fish are from south east Asia, right?


NOTE: originally had 2 light fixtures on it, but since both fish ate up all the algae at week 2, I added a third, which has caused the last batch of ulva to take hold.
Second pic is of the ulva itself, and some plastic pipes/boxes to separate the fish somewhat, give them more "area" to swim around in. This keeps the fast moving water separate from the ulva side.
 

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Matt L.

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Scarsdale, NY
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I have never used hyposalinity in anything but a dedicated quarantine tank (live rock and no other filtration except skimming. and maybe carbon). Any number of die offs can happen with livestock going through hyposalinity. Hyposalinity does work, although you need a very good calibrated salinity meter (1.010 might be too high -- I targeted between 1.006 and 1.009, with an average of 1.0075). I used to use three cross calibrated meters just in case.
 
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Alright, edited the extra zero out. heh
I was just reading a little more about cyanide poisoning, apparently the fish metabolizes it over time and eventually it becomes undetectable, which is why regulators are having a terrible time trying to enforce its use. Another article I read said that half of all blue tangs (assume regal/hippo) caught in the indo china triangle, are caught using cyanide. Of the fish tested in the EU aquarium trade from 5 major distributors/importers, cyanide was detected mostly in tangs, angels and butterflies.

Even though cyanide is metabolized, if it doesn't outright kill a fish, it still reduces longer term survival, though this was hard to quantify. They did a study on Chromis showing what the LD50 were and the different death rates with different CN concentrations, which doesn't really help me too much. Another article I read, stated death rates for fish caught using CN was 75% within 48 hours. The ones that don't die are exported. Divers could use less toxic CN, but it just makes their catch harder, so they increase the CN concentration to make up their earnings with bigger catches (selling at the same unit price).

So it's possible the clown tang I had, was suffering from higher levels of CN, whereas the naso had probably recovered, (which is why it was eating well) or it just had lower exposure to CN and though looked OK on the outside, was suffering from liver damage and dying slowly.

So my questions to you all are;

Of all the small naso tangs you've ever had, how many made it to the age of 1?
for me it's 0 of 2 past 2 months.

Better yet, for statistical purposes, using a more popular fish, the regal/blue hippo tang, the fish with the highest rate of CN used, how many have had a small 3 inch fish, live for more than a year?
Thanks.
 

nvladik

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NJ
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I had a blond naso that lived for a few years before I sold it. I am not sure if it's still alive at the new owners home.

I have a Gem Tang that I bought as a 1.5 baby, QTed in Copper, that'd now 4 to 5 inches and 4 years old. Not an exact match, but close.
 

Rebels23

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Long Island
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I've had 2 blonde Naso's so far and they all perished, all in quarantine. Seemingly very healthy but they just drop dead. I've had better luck with hippos, but there are a lot more sources for it then the Naso, and it is being bred.

Hypo does seem to work, but funky things seem to happen in hypo (more susceptible to disease?). I believe Jay Hemdel said the same thing.
 

MDreef

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NYC
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what was the ph during hypo treatment? Good aeration? One of the big challenges of hypo, in addition to needing close to perfectly calibrated refractometers, is maintaining ph above 7.5. 1.010 to 1.014 could’ve caused a shock especially given the margin of error of an average refractometer.

6 weeks would be quite long for a fish to survive a cyanide poisoning. In general, most fish die within 96hrs (LC50), milder cases about a week or two from capture with cyanide. Some fish survive long term but usually display physiological symptoms that rarely go away. In this case I would probably look for another cause.

I’ve found naso tangs to be quite hardy. Hippo tangs are prone to a number of health issues including stress induced that would not be caught by hypo treatment.
 
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what was the ph during hypo treatment? Good aeration? One of the big challenges of hypo, in addition to needing close to perfectly calibrated refractometers, is maintaining ph above 7.5. 1.010 to 1.014 could’ve caused a shock especially given the margin of error of an average refractometer.

6 weeks would be quite long for a fish to survive a cyanide poisoning. In general, most fish die within 96hrs (LC50), milder cases about a week or two from capture with cyanide. Some fish survive long term but usually display physiological symptoms that rarely go away. In this case I would probably look for another cause.

I’ve found naso tangs to be quite hardy. Hippo tangs are prone to a number of health issues including stress induced that would not be caught by hypo treatment.
Thanks for your feedback, let me see. When prepping the 22 gallon home depot bin you see in the photo, I start with 4 gallons of tank water, then add 4 gallons of fresh water over 4 days. To the first gallon of fresh water, I add a half of table spoon of baking soda and do not measure my pH after, as I guestimate the buffering should last a month. After the target hyposalinity has been reached, I perform 25% water changes weekly, with carbon swaps every 2 weeks.
As for oxygen levels, that was my primary thought, however the fish looked active though out the first weeks and was not breathing rapidly. The damsels are still fine today.

Thank you for your knowledge regarding CN toxicity, I have not been able to find any references online. If you do not suspect cyanide, then I would have to suspect that last batch of flatworm contaminated ulva I added to feed them. Since I do have some flatworms in my system, it's possible the large hand full that I added had exploded enough flatworms, their toxin levels would have been too much for the carbon to soak up. Their toxicity, if they died rapidly in the hyposalinity would be acute, and any the fish ate on the ulva itself (food poisoning for the fish), may be the reason the clown was turned off to it and stopped eating it. hmm, then my only adjustment is to wash the ulva in tap water before feeding, which I will do going forward. The Naso was eating voraciously beforehand. I only wished I kept a more careful eye on them for that week, but they were swimming under the ulva. (I dumped in probably 10x the amount of ulva that week, since I harvested my algae scrubber.)

The naso died last weekend. It maintained its body mass and belly was not shrunken. It simply slowed down and finally tipped over. I wasn't able to observe it eating, but it did not waste away. (The clown when it stopped eating because as thin as paper, just a skeleton really).
 
Last edited:
Location
Queens, NY
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I had a blond naso that lived for a few years before I sold it. I am not sure if it's still alive at the new owners home.

I have a Gem Tang that I bought as a 1.5 baby, QTed in Copper, that'd now 4 to 5 inches and 4 years old. Not an exact match, but close.
Thanks for your feedback, the gem tangs, I believe are all hand netted from deeper waters, from just 1 location, which justifies their high prices. They would not be part of the normal indo china supply chain, we see with all these common fish, in question. Similarly with Australian, Caribbean, or Red Sea sources.
 

nvladik

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NJ
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Thanks for your feedback, the gem tangs, I believe are all hand netted from deeper waters, from just 1 location, which justifies their high prices. They would not be part of the normal indo china supply chain, we see with all these common fish, in question. Similarly with Australian, Caribbean, or Red Sea sources.
You are probably right. I thought cyanide was more of a river thing than ocean. Am I wrong?

For the flatworms theory - you would need to see a lot of them in order for the toxicity to be that high to kill fish. Warning labels on flatworm exit are there cause manufacturer doesn't know how infected of a system the product is being added to. "exploded enough flatworms" is also not a likely scenario, they wouldn't breed quickly and then die suddenly.
 

nvladik

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NJ
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I honestly think you are just experiencing bad luck. There are some fish I am just not lucky with. Powder Blue - tried 4 times, how many do I have now? none. Fat-head Antheas - had to try 4 times also, finally have 1.
 
Location
Queens, NY
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I honestly think you are just experiencing bad luck. There are some fish I am just not lucky with. Powder Blue - tried 4 times, how many do I have now? none. Fat-head Antheas - had to try 4 times also, finally have 1.
Was it really luck? or cyanide fishing, heh. There's a difference in price and survival rates between copper banded butterflies from Indo China and the Australian sourced net caught fish for a reason.

It seems when I pick up a fish from the aquarium, I have terrible odds of it making it though quarantine and into the display. If it died in quarantine, it was going to die anyway. When I snorkel and catch butterflies and other interesting fish here during the summer, I get close over 90 to 100% of them surviving as long as I have individual spaces for them. As long they don't fight each other or eat each other. If I adapt them to eating, they always make it.
 

Humblefish

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Another possibility is the fish you are trying to QT have Marine Velvet Disease, which hyposalinity will suppress for a while but not completely eliminate.
 

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