I got the Blues for Blues
- Thread starter tosiek
- Start date
- Location
- Greenpoint Brooklyn, NY
Actually, while you think the color reproduction is the same (IE 14k "look" to a tank or so) its actually not and in no way the same. Only certain colors pick up with the spectrum of light making your tank somewhat monochromatic as there isn't the full RGB color spectrum being used, even if you used the RGB 3-up leds. If you put a LED next to MH you would see the LED's aren't quite right. They do a really good job now compared to a year ago with the new LED's on the market but they still need work. I would say 2 years and we'll have something as good if not better than MH.
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That is definitely an issue - I bought something amazing looking at the last two swaps that I regretted in my tank. What can be done about it? I'm afraid, not much. I doubt online vendors will post white light photos, as that might hurt their sales, and who has the time to accommodate you with light changes at a crowded swap for that $30 frag, while a line of people pushes on you, trying to get to display. Going with a white flashlight is a neat idea... hopefully it's a good enough representation, but is still a gamble. Lighting is a b!tch... Two things drove me mad trying to get right - rock placement and lighting - I nearly quit the hobby in frustration. Algae infestations are easy in comparison - you have a recipe on how to fix it - but in the world of aquascaping & lighting, there's none.
Reefing seems to be more art than a science - I view the tank as an art project, a living canvas, that takes a lot of work to get just right. The rocks, the corals, their colors, placement, composition, daytime and night appearance, is a tricky and complex web of relations. So far I see the only way to get it is right is through a lot of thought, experimentation, and learning from experience in both function and aesthetics. I have a nice tank now, but changed 50% of livestock and 90% of equipment to get the setup that feels right, but is far from perfect.
Reefing seems to be more art than a science - I view the tank as an art project, a living canvas, that takes a lot of work to get just right. The rocks, the corals, their colors, placement, composition, daytime and night appearance, is a tricky and complex web of relations. So far I see the only way to get it is right is through a lot of thought, experimentation, and learning from experience in both function and aesthetics. I have a nice tank now, but changed 50% of livestock and 90% of equipment to get the setup that feels right, but is far from perfect.
- Location
- poughquag, ny
the light isn't the only thing that will cause corals to appear different, i've gotten corals that looked great under certain mh or t5 and went into my tank and didnt look as good, and the opposite, bought stuff that looked ok in their system and looked great in mine, and even if lighting is the same a few days later the coral still might change dramatic from tanks parms ect. if the color portion is the biggest issue, then most of us or atleast some of us thats been around the block alittle know what that corals looks like and have a good idea what it will turn into in our tanks. when u buy a new car you know what it looks like in person which is never what the ad's look like, { this coming from working at a dealership } i had seen pre-release's of cars with the advertising and on commercials, even though it is the same car, those special lights to highlight certain bodylines ect make the car look so mch better then in person, i do agree that it is almost a false advertising alot of web site use when selling corals, the photoshop picture's flow turned off, and so on
Blue is the best.
1) I agree absolutely that it's not fair to display corals under 20K lighting especially in pictures online.
2) I do not agree that vendors are being misleading. Since they are in business to make money, it's only fair that they show their corals to "the best advantage".
3) "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and I for one love the look of 20K lighting and the effect it has on coral coloration. It's not that you can't have the color you want for your lights; its just that you need a lot of blue spectrum to stimulate zoxanthellae growth.
4) "Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me": Now that you are aware I think you won't be fooled again and therefore I think this thread has created a worthwhile discussion for those who haven't yet learned the lesson, but I don't think this changes the reality that ingeneral folks prefer the color of corals under 20K and should therefore be using 20K instead of 14 or even 10.
5) For the record Tyree was using Radiums in the 90s so the "blue craze" is definitely NOT new.
1) I agree absolutely that it's not fair to display corals under 20K lighting especially in pictures online.
2) I do not agree that vendors are being misleading. Since they are in business to make money, it's only fair that they show their corals to "the best advantage".
3) "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and I for one love the look of 20K lighting and the effect it has on coral coloration. It's not that you can't have the color you want for your lights; its just that you need a lot of blue spectrum to stimulate zoxanthellae growth.
4) "Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me": Now that you are aware I think you won't be fooled again and therefore I think this thread has created a worthwhile discussion for those who haven't yet learned the lesson, but I don't think this changes the reality that ingeneral folks prefer the color of corals under 20K and should therefore be using 20K instead of 14 or even 10.
5) For the record Tyree was using Radiums in the 90s so the "blue craze" is definitely NOT new.
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Not wanting to be too argumentative, but that is a loaded statement with very little evidentiary proof. I would love to use LEDs over my tank and have every intention of giving them a try once they are readily available in a size and configuration usable over my system (as seen in the Oct. TOTM on that OTHER reefer site) but honestly dude if you have proof of this in the form of local reefers tanks that I can go and visit I would pay good money for that info :wink1: From what I have seen so far LEDs have no where near the penetration of MH and are only good to a depth of 12 inches or less for the high light loving purples and blues. They produce outrageously beautiful fluorescence, but significantly lower PAR in the commercially available form one finds today in the US.
My wife is a HUGE fan of LEDs because...they are cheaper than MH. I personally use a mix of Blue LED and White VHO T5, and I love the look of the tank. It is lit up beautifully during the day, and the Blue LED at night just blows me away. Whenever I sell things from my tank, I try to get pictures with and without LED, this way whoever buys stuff can see what it will look like. I just got my first real SPS Acros, and they look INCREDIBLE under the mixed lights. Under just the white, they look sorta...not so hot. But with the LED, omg, they EXPLODE with color.
- Location
- poughquag, ny
dang almost like seeing a ghost, and ur link too your tank doesnt work
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
Hey Joe,
Nice to see you here. If you think we are talking about 20k MH lighting kind of blue you are mistaken. What is in fashion these days is practcally the equivalent of running your system on actinic only all the time. Go to MACNA or any swap event and any vendor running 20k halides looks like the whitest display in the room guaranteed. Remember blacklight posters-- that is what I'm talking about.
Regarding LED's, while I don't think they are spectrally quite there yet, some of the newer units can certainly produce enough light to grow anything you'd like it large 30" + deep systems. If you are up for the ride, you can always check out James Chou's impressive LED lit displays on LI. Fullblown large SPS tanks that have been on LEDs for at least 2 years and he scorched many of them when switched from MH.
Nice to see you here. If you think we are talking about 20k MH lighting kind of blue you are mistaken. What is in fashion these days is practcally the equivalent of running your system on actinic only all the time. Go to MACNA or any swap event and any vendor running 20k halides looks like the whitest display in the room guaranteed. Remember blacklight posters-- that is what I'm talking about.
Regarding LED's, while I don't think they are spectrally quite there yet, some of the newer units can certainly produce enough light to grow anything you'd like it large 30" + deep systems. If you are up for the ride, you can always check out James Chou's impressive LED lit displays on LI. Fullblown large SPS tanks that have been on LEDs for at least 2 years and he scorched many of them when switched from MH.
1) I agree absolutely that it's not fair to display
corals under 20K lighting especially in pictures online.
2) I do not agree that vendors are being misleading. Since they are in business to make money, it's only fair that they show their corals to "the best advantage".
3) "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and I for one love the look of 20K lighting and the effect it has on coral coloration. It's not that you can't have the color you want for your lights; its just that you need a lot of blue spectrum to stimulate zoxanthellae growth.
4) "Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me": Now that you are aware I think you won't be fooled again and therefore I think this thread has created a worthwhile discussion for those who haven't yet learned the lesson, but I don't think this changes the reality that ingeneral folks prefer the color of corals under 20K and should therefore be using 20K instead of 14 or even 10.
5) For the record Tyree was using Radiums in the 90s so the "blue craze" is definitely NOT new.
- Location
- Upper East Side
I agree that I am tired of the blue light. It is particularly difficult to photograph - I had my white balance turned all the way to the negative blue side AND I had to take the blue tones out of my photographs via photoshop to get anything that didn't look like a wash of blue. I do prefer natural lighting above my tanks.
I think the question of how zooxanthellae respond to such blue light is interesting. In the long term, I wonder how corals kept in these conditions will fare. In the meantime, I wish vendors would always note their lighting setup and would stop photoshopping corals.
It makes it hard to buy anything except in person anymore (and I was one of those people who asked for the blue to be killed before I purchased!!)
I think the question of how zooxanthellae respond to such blue light is interesting. In the long term, I wonder how corals kept in these conditions will fare. In the meantime, I wish vendors would always note their lighting setup and would stop photoshopping corals.
It makes it hard to buy anything except in person anymore (and I was one of those people who asked for the blue to be killed before I purchased!!)
- Location
- Flushing, NY
I also asked for the white's to be turned on before I purchased. I want to know how it'll look under my own lighting before I bought it since I don't run the blue's only all the time like it was shown there.
- Location
- Upper East Side
Also, I have to think running all of the blue changes coral growth for the worse. The yellower the light, the better the growth on your corals. Zooxanthellae obviously "like" light that appears yellow to us.
Mea Culpa!
If you guy's are talking about displays with pure actinic I agree that's definitely unreal and unrealistic so I plead lack of reading, and if you have a real connection with James I'd definitely be willing to make the trip for a view of a SPS/LED tank. Just shoot me a PM!
Thanks for such a great thread!
JP
Yeah, I let the website die, but I promise to restart BlueFrags.com soon with a fresh blog and webcam.
Sorry,
Joe
- Location
- Huntington
I agree with the previous LED statements in respect to the spectrum. I have spoken with a lot of people both in the business and just hobbyists. The general consensus is that the technology is closer than it was a few years ago but still a few years from being just right. I just haven't found a setup that looks better than a halide and T5 combo. I think the animals are spectacular enough in their own true colors without juicing them with all blue LEDs to the point they just look fake.
As for the growth and health, I can't imagine that extended use of purely blue light would have any benefit unless maybe if the coral in question was a deep water or azooxanthellate species. I think it would definitely effect growth pattern and actual coloration as well as hinder calcification.
As for the growth and health, I can't imagine that extended use of purely blue light would have any benefit unless maybe if the coral in question was a deep water or azooxanthellate species. I think it would definitely effect growth pattern and actual coloration as well as hinder calcification.
I love the blue - in moderation - but I am partially color blind so I'm weird and like boldness in color because I see it better (when I was a glassblower i used a lot of blue with orange because it looks good to me). At home I run 10,000 K MH, 20,000 K MH and 2 blue LED strips that replaced my VHO actinics (mainly because I didn't like replacing the VHO's ever 6-8 months for coral growth). They aren't all on all the time, and what I really like is that the tank looks different at different times of the day. It reminds me of doing morning dives, afternoon dives and night dives on the same reef.
I think that LED strips/VHO's make a difference in coral growth as they peak around 470 nanometers which is yummy for photosynthesis.
What I think is funny about reefing events is that 4 or 5 years ago people were bringing the bluest LED flashlights or keylights to see the 'real' colors of the corals. Now, with all the vendors running so much blue, people have to bring white flashlights to the events to see the 'real' colors. Personally, I don't think the idea of real or natural colors makes much sense, just the colors under the light that happens to be on the corals at the time, and that is personal preference (my preference is to have several light 'colors' over the day). Is 10,000k really natural? Is 6500k? 14000k? None and all of them are depending on the time of day and depth on the wild reefs and even then most photos and video are shot with strobes or lights which changes the color yet again! Which gets me back to personal preference.
I do agree that the blues at frag events gets difficult on the eyes after a few minutes and I find myself kind of not looking anymore, at least not really clocking the corals.
Macro photography is interesting to me on vendor sites because the corals don't look the same from a foot away and I don't have macro lens eyes. Combine macro photography with blue lights and who knows what the coral is going to look like in person.
Great thread for my Friday night!
I think that LED strips/VHO's make a difference in coral growth as they peak around 470 nanometers which is yummy for photosynthesis.
What I think is funny about reefing events is that 4 or 5 years ago people were bringing the bluest LED flashlights or keylights to see the 'real' colors of the corals. Now, with all the vendors running so much blue, people have to bring white flashlights to the events to see the 'real' colors.
Personally, I don't think the idea of real or natural colors makes much sense, just the colors under the light that happens to be on the corals at the time, and that is personal preference (my preference is to have several light 'colors' over the day). Is 10,000k really natural? Is 6500k? 14000k? None and all of them are depending on the time of day and depth on the wild reefs and even then most photos and video are shot with strobes or lights which changes the color yet again! Which gets me back to personal preference.I do agree that the blues at frag events gets difficult on the eyes after a few minutes and I find myself kind of not looking anymore, at least not really clocking the corals.
Macro photography is interesting to me on vendor sites because the corals don't look the same from a foot away and I don't have macro lens eyes. Combine macro photography with blue lights and who knows what the coral is going to look like in person.
Great thread for my Friday night!
wow wow wow!! great thread..first off..im new in the LED dept. my tanks been running the eco rays for about 3 weeks now..and yes i do see a little tiny growth..i actually have an MR member coming by this weekend with a lux meter to really put the lights to the test!! and as for the blue..my blue leds come on just for an hour before all the lights go on..i couldnt afford a dimmable LED system..so the blue lights are MY dusk and dawn..i love how my corals look when both lights are on..and i love how my corals look when just blue lights are on..if any of you have seen my sneaker collection..you would know i LOVE bright colors!! hahaha!! so i think its up to the buyer to do research on the corals, what lighting it needs, and also how easy it is to keep. every store i go to, and every vendor at past swaps, would ALWAYS switch the lights on for me..they show it in daylight and in actinics..its all about preference..i know for a fact id never run blue lights all day because the corals would never grow..and i wouldnt run daylights all day because the color looks blah and dull..so i went with 50/50 with blue and white and i LOVE the colors!! ok..thas all for now. im going to sleep!! hahahahahaha
I purchased a coral from a vendor based on pictures only, and I almost feel taken advantage of. The picture was messed with so much that I didnt believe it was the same coral....and This was based on immediate colors, and the coral has not changed at all. The picture was pink/green/purple, and the coral is basically brown under 20k or less lighting. I can only see the colors when the only lights running are actinics, and even then it isnt as nice as the original picture.
I will no longer buy from the vendor, been fooled to many times.
I will no longer buy from the vendor, been fooled to many times.
- Location
- Flushing NY 11355
I think you got it mostly wrong. Even though I would not say LED can simulate MH easily but your points of MH penetrate better than LED is definitely mistaken if you were using the same amount of driving energy. I have run couple tests in seminars and tanks of MR members that are like 30-36" tall. The results are that lower powered LEDs have much higher par than MH light. Check out the pdf in this thread for a sample of LED vs MH in Par relative to height and angles of the center.
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/diy-do-yourself/73701-my-diy-leds-profilux-controller.html
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